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Mr. AUSTIN. We will get the population complete. Mr. CRUMP. You will get the population complete? Mr. AUSTIN. Yes; but we have no idea of going into the details that we did in the 1930 census, because it is not necessary at this time. Mr. ELLENBoGEN. Nobody has that in mind, but it may be that your having a little more money will enable you to get a little more information; and we want to know what is necessary. The CHAIRMAN. Have you conferred with Mr. Douglas? Mr. AUSTIN. Yes. And we have the essential facts that we want. Mr. FLETCHER. What is the size of the present personnel of your Bureau? Mr. AUSTIN. Do you mean under civil service? Mr. FLETCHER. The whole thing. Mr. AUSTIN. We have 647 civil-service employees, and 99 vacancies that have not been filled, under the Economy Act, among the civil-service places. Now, we have had temporary work down there for C.W.A. workers. A month ago we had 1,600 temporary C.W.A. workers. We made no selection of them. They were certified to us by the employment bureau on Indiana Avenue here in Washington. We accepted those people and put them to work. We have gotten to the point now where we are reducing that force. Last week we let 100 of them go; this week we will let 400 more go. Now, we are completing just as fast as we can the C.W.A. projects. Mr. FLETCHER. Your entire force down there has been 1,000? Mr. AUSTIN. Counting the temporary workers? Mr. FLETCHER. Yes. Mr. AUSTIN. No; it is about 2,000. Mr. FLETCHER. How much have you increased the personnel since March 1933, under the so-called “new deal?” Mr. AUSTIN. We have not increased it. We have reduced it considerably. We have a very much decreased force. As a matter of fact, the Census Office has 150 less employees now—I mean, civilservice employees—than at any time since it was organized in 1902. And we have 99 vacancies that have come up in the last 2 years that we have not been able to fill. Mr. FLETCHER. Is that due to the fact that you have taken on more people outside of the civil service? Mr. AUSTIN. No; it is the economy act. It is also due to the redtape necessary to get the Civil Service Commission to fill a vacancy. You have to get the approval of the Civil Service Commission. You have to write a “job description” of the particular job you want to fill, and send it over to the Commission for o You have then to send it to Mr. Douglas and get the approval of the Budget Bureau; and you have to get the nominal approval of the President of the United States, before you can fill it. Mr. FLETCHER. Has Mr. Douglas submitted a statement approv. his recommendation? Is there anything in the record about that? Mr. AUSTIN. Yes; there is a letter from Mr. Douglas to the Secretary of Commerce, in which he has approved this bill that Mr. Lozier introduced, and said it was not contrary to the financial program of the Government. Mr. FLETCHER. Should that not be in the record?

Mr. CRUMP. There is one trouble about this that everybody will have to reckon with. You are going to have a lot of small towns that have decreased in population; and you will find that those figures are published all over the United States showing that this town has decreased in population since the last census. Now, what is going to be the explanation of the losses of those towns, and what are we going to do about that? As a matter of fact, I think that men do not like to establish a business in a town that is decreasing in population. Mr. AUSTIN. Well, we are going to tell you the truth about the various towns, whatever it is. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the question would be, should they be inveigled into a town where the population has been decreasing? [Laughter.] Mr. FLETCHER. Well, you have always had that kind of experience, have you not? Mr. A UsTIN. There is no change in our plans. Mr. ELLENBog EN. Mr. Austin, when you made this estimate which you are submitting, you had in mind, did you not, the limitations to this work? I wonder if you will tell us what you intended to cover; that is, what this estimate would pay for? Mr. AUSTIN. This estimate would pay for a census in accordance with that bill. It covers the complete field of work. We have shown you as well as we could what the distribution would be and what the office expenditures will be, as well as those in the field. It is based upon our past experiences, and upon our experience with the 1930 census. Mr. ELLENBogEN. As to employment and unemployment, what will it cover? What information will it give us? - Mr. AUSTIN. I cannot answer that question now, because I think, from the previous experience of the Census Office in making an investigation to cover the entire United States, we know pretty well just what inquiries we can get complete and accurate information upon, and the inquiries upon which we cannot. I think in the preparation of the schedules, as the law requires in the fifteenth decennial census, that should be left to the Bureau of the Census. Mr. ELLENBoGEN. You are not answering my questions. What I want to know is this: When you got this memorandum up, you necessarily had in mind a number of questions, and that if you got up other questions, it would necessarily cost more money. And I want to know exactly how you arrived at the estimates, so that we can judge of them. Mr. AUSTIN. We did not figure out the number of inquiries on any schedule in making that estimate, because we know very well from previous experience, within reasonable limits, just where the line should be drawn. We also know that the principal cost of any census is the field end of the work; it is the enumeration. Now, those estimates are made up very carefully, based on our experience with the 1930 census. That is as near as we can give it, in the shape of an estimate at this time. Mr. ELLENBogEN. In your opinion, will that be sufficient to give us what we need? Mr. AUSTIN. In my opinion it is sufficient to do the work that it is absolutely necessary to do at this time.

Mr. FLETCHER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask at this time, does the approval of the Director of the Budget apply only to the Lozier bill, and not to the Mr. AUSTIN (interposing). To the Lozier bill only. Mr. FLETCHER. To the Lozier bill only? Mr. AUSTIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rice, have you any additional observations to make? Mr. RICE. I think not, Mr. Chairman. Mr. CRUMP. Let me ask you how many jobs are we going to have— I will put it that way—in our respective districts? [Laughter.]. We want you to have scientific and intelligent people to do the work and do a good job—provided you do not cut down the census figures as to our population. [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN. That is, in Memphis? [Laughter.] Mr. CRUMP. In Memphis particuarly. But how many jobs will each Congressman have to give out—or have the right to give out? I think every one we get is a liability, rather than an asset. Mr. AUSTIN. I cannot tell you that.


The CHAIRMAN. If Mr. Rice is through, we will now hear Dr. Truesdell. You may state your name and title for the record, Dr. Truesdell.

Dr. TRUESDELL. My name is Leon E. Truesdell. I am chief statistician, Division of Population, Bureau of the Census, Department of Commerce.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Truesdell, you may make such statement with reference to this proposed census as you think proper.

Dr. TRUESDELL. Most of the general features of the proposition have already been covered, I think, by Mr. Austin and Dr. Rice. The particular questions that came up yesterday, that were in a way referred to me, had to do with the conduct of the census and the details of the giving out of the information.

One or two of the members yesterday asked questions about the length of the census period, “What was the good of the census if we had to wait 2 years before we got any figures?” I might explain a little the process of giving out the figures.

Just as soon as the enumeration was completed in any areas in 1930, the supervisor made local announcements—preliminary, of course, but official announcements of the population; and shortly after the beginning of the announcement of population, announcements were made also of the number of unemployed, that is, the number of jobless, which is, perhaps, not quite the whole number of unemployed. Then, as soon as these returns came into the Washington office and were checked up and gotten together in larger areas, another set of preliminary announcements was made from the Census Bureau. After a little while, we were able to make these announcements covering entire States, as well as the cities, counties and subdivisions of a State, which constituted the material of the supervisors' announcements.

Then, as we began to complete the final count, we issued State bulletins. We issued State and county population figures in a bulletin for each State, giving the population of the State, its cities, counties, townships, and minor subdivisions. That represented the first installment of what you might call the final reports of the census. Then we issued another series of bulletins, in which the population was classified by color, sex, age, marital condition, and so forth. These bulletins also gave the figures for small areas, the counties, cities, and, to some extent, the townships. Then another series of bulletins gave information on occupations. You see, there were so many questions in the 1930 census that, in order to get some of it out quickly, we divided it up into three or four stages or installments for publication and tabulation; and in most cases one would begin before the other was finished; and the material came out State by State. Then, after the series of bulletins on occupations was well under way, there came the series of bulletins on families. So that there were really four separate sets of State bulletins. Then, in addition, toward the end of the period, we got together the classified chapters which make up what we call the “general report.” There are two general reports in the volumes of the 1930 census, the report on population and the report on occupations. For the material on families, we had no time to make up a general report. Now, that is the way we covered the 3 years and some months of the 1930 census period. In somewhat the same way, only on a more condensed scale, we would cover the 2 years which have been spoken of as the probable time of completing the returns of this proposed new CenSuS. That does not mean that a very large quantity of material would not be available in the first few months of the period. We began to issue press releases in 1930 within a few days of the enumeration; and we i. a good many of those within 2 months—that is, the preliminary gures. The CHAIRMAN. Would much of this information be available by January 12 Dr. TRUESDELL. I have worried a good bit about the problem of getting this information out quickly. That would be getting it out a little more quickly than we did in 1930. But I think we can do it. The CHAIRMAN. But there is an emergency now. Dr. TRUESDELL. Yes; and for that reason and because the schedule is smaller and because the enumeration is going to be speeded up. I think we might have pretty nearly the United States totals early in January at the latest. Mr. KINZER. Would it not be more difficult for that very reason? Dr. TRUESDELL. I do not think that the enumeration would be any more difficult than it was in 1930. We are planning to split up the enumeration districts on the basis of the 1930 census. When a district took more than the allotted time than in 1930, we are going to split it up and get 1t done more quickly. In some areas the population has increased a great deal. We may not in the first place make an adequate allowance for that increased population, and we may have difficulties in enumeration on that account in some places. But the supervisor, finding that to be the case in the early stages of the enumeration period, will be authorized to make changes and to put in new enumerators as they are needed. Mr. FLETCHER. Are the figures on families now available? Dr. TRUESDELL. The 1930 census figures on families are available and have been available for a long time. Now, questions have come up in regard to the schedule. It has been agreed in all the various conferences that we have had and in the discussions of the 1934 census that we must be satisfied with a limited census, with a very few questions. There are, of course, in any census which covers population at all, a few fundamental questions that you almost have to ask, such as sex, age, color, and probably marital condition. And occupations will be a very important part of this census. A census of unemployment requires a classification by occupations. It makes a good deal of difference in the significance of unemployment what occupation the unemployed person usually follows. And as that is called for in the title of the bill, we must necessarily make it an important feature. The exact questions on employment and unemployment I do not think we ought even to consider In OW. Mr. FLETCHER. What was that? I did not quite get that. Dr. TRUESDELL. The exact questions on unemployment—I do not think we can settle them now. The information we want to get, of course, is the whole number of unemployed persons and some classification; and for this unemployment schedule there will be available all the classifications shown on the schedule; where we ask for age, sex, color, and marital condition, we shall have this information for the unemployed as well as for the total population. Mr. FLETCHER. In view of the educational situation, is it not essential that we have definite information in regard to occupations, so that the returns will show something about how to reorganize the curricula of the schools and colleges? Dr. TRUESDELL. That is one of the reasons for making occupations a part of this census, even though occupations make a very expensive feature of the census. Mr. FLETCHER. That has never been done accurately, has it? Dr. TRUESDELL. I think so. Mr. FIESINGER. As I understand, the Government has not any way now of taking a census of the unemployed; that is, you do not make a periodical estimate of the unemployed in the United States? Dr. TRUESDELL. We do not do anything of that kind in the Census Bureau. The estimates are made Mr. FIESINGER (interposing). Is the idea of this to establish an agency that will keep track of the unemployed? Dr. TRUESDELL. I do not have any definite plan now as to whether a census of this kind will need to be repeated every 5 years, or every 10 years, or not. We are planning just now to supply information that is needed in the present emergency. Mr. ELLENBogEN. Mr. Fiesinger is raising the same point that I o in mind as to whether there is any way to keep these data up to date? Mr. FIESINGER. That is the idea. The figures are changing so rapidly that I was wondering whether there was any way for keeping that information up to date?

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