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The Marquess of Clanricarde wished Lord Monteagle said, such a case as an to know if the noble Duke proposed to allegation of the forgery of fifteen names refer the Bill, to which petitions related, should not be suffered to pass without to the proposed Select Committee. strict inquiry. Only last night a state
The Duke of Richmond: Only the pe- ment had been made regarding a Member tition ; but I think the Bill ought not to of the other House, who had been renpass until the Report of the Committee dered liable to the amount of 30,0001. by has been received.
the insertion of his name in an Act of The Marquess of Clanricarde objected Parliament without his authority. No to the progress of the Bill being delayed. inconvenience could result from postpon
The Duke of Richmond said, he knew ing the measure; and although he should nothing of the case but this—the peti- regret this particular Bill being lost, he tioners stated that they had never signed would rather that should happen than or authorized any one to sign their names these allegations pass without inquiry. for them, whereas people had sworn that Committee nominated. they had seen the parties sign. The Marquess of Clanricarde appre
DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE BILL.) Lord hended that it was a case of perjury, Brougham moved, that the House do repunishable in the ordinary way before a solve itself into a Committee on the Docu
a court of law; but he did not see why the mentary Evidence Bill. The noble and Bill should be delayed on account of this learned Lord explained the state of the allegation, because, supposing all these existing law respecting documentary evinames erased, there would still remain a dence, and the defects which the Bill was sufficiency of surplus to carry on the work. intended to remedy. Railway Bills had Lord Brougham: The House might in of the law; and whilst providing for the
introduced sundry anomalies in this branch pænam of such proceedings delay the Bill. admission of documentary evidence
, omitAfter a short conversation,
ted to attach penalties in cases of fraud. The Duke of Richmond said, he did not The Great Western Railway Company had desire to delay the Bill long, but only obtained the insertion of a clause stating until an inquiry had taken place. He thatmust inform the noble Marquess that the amount of 100,0001. had been struck off by law evidence against them, it was very ex
“Whereas, the books of the Company were the subscription for noncompliance with pedient that they should be also evidence for the Standing Orders, and then would re- ihem.” main the question, whether enough sur. It therefore enacted, that, with respect to plus still remained to carry on the works. all questions of rate, the entries in the It would be absurd to pass the Bill through books of the Company should be evidence all its stages until that fact was ascer- for the Company of all matters contained tained.
in them. The Bill corrected all these The Earl of Devon said, he was tempt- anomalies, and made it forgery to couned to move the adoption of an interme- terfeit certificates of documents. There diate course, as an Amendment on the was likewise a clause to enable the Journals Motion of his noble Friend. Why should of either House of Parliament to be given not the petitions be referred specially to in evidence. The noble Lord concluded the Commiitee of the Bill, with power to by moving that the Bill be commitinquire into the allegations contained in ied, in order that when the Report should those petitions; and also whether, if the be brought up, he might propose his fact were proved, it ought to delay the Amendments, and have the Bill reprinted, further progress of the Bill.
and asterwards recommitted. The Duke of Richmond said, his noble The Lord Chancellor highly approved Friend could not take that course; for by of the suggestion of his noble and learned the Standing Orders of the House, the Friend with respect to constituting the Committee could not entertain the in-printed Journals of their Lordships House quiries proposed, and his noble Friend legal evidence in a court of justice, and must, therefore, give a day's notice of agreed entirely in the proposal to intromoving the suspeosion of the Standing duce a clause to that effeci into the Bill. O der.
Lord Campbell highly approved of the After a few words from the Marquess of Bill. It would simplify the proceediogs Clanricarde and the Earl of Charleville, save expense, and prevent anomalies
House in Committee. Bill reported without Amendment. Amendments made.
he had some reason then for believing that the delusion would be but temporary, and that the people would return to the EstabFREE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.] The lishment; but he had given consent for Marquess of Breadalbane presented pe- the erection of a temporary building, on titions from the General Assembly of the the condition that it should be removable Free Church of Scotland, the Inhabi- at six months' notice, which he thought tants of Wick, and of the Free Church a perfectly reasonable one. He was only congregation at Peebles, complaining of anxious to promote the permanent inthe conduct of certain landowners interest of the country. The question beScotland, who peremptorily refuse to grant tween his tenantry and him, was not one sites for the erection of churches for the of principle but of time, and he trusted use of congregations of the Free Church that in the end all differences would be of Scotland; also a petition from the Pres- amicably adjusted. bytery of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in connexion with the Presbyterian Church in England, praying that "the law of property may be so far modified as to admit of the purchase of sites for churches and chapels for the use of members of the Free Church." The noble Marquess stated, that great dissatisfaction had been caused by the refusal of landed proprietors to grant sites among the community of the Free Church. That community embraced 800 congregations, with 620 ministers. The amount subscribed for the use of the Free Church since the disruption, was 776,000l., of which 320,000l. had been applied in the erection of churches. He hoped that the prayer of the petitioners, which was confined to obtaining the accommodation indispensable for the free exercise of their worship, would be acceded to; and that their Lordships' would pronounce by an authoritative declaration that men who were good citizens and obedient to the laws, although dissenting from the Established Church, should not be precluded from that free exercise of their religion which was guaranteed to the professors of all forms of Christianity by the great principle of toleration inseparable from the British Constitution. If large proprietors were to exercise their rights of property in direct contradiction to that principle, we might say that we had a theory of religious liberty, but that our practice would be totally at variance with it,
The Earl of Cawdor denied, that in the conduct which he had observed with regard to the adherents of the Free Church, he had been actuated by the harsh and oppressive motives attributed to him by the Rev. Mr. Begg and others, or that he had wished to exercise an extreme right in order to obstruct the enjoyment of religious liberty. He had, in the first instance, objected to the erection by them of a permanent place of worship, because
The Duke of Buccleuch said, he should not have troubled their Lordships with any observations, had it not been that his name was mentioned in the petition as one of those who objected to and took means to prevent the building of a Free Church; and he also wished to take notice of the extraordinary zeal and diligence with which some people laboured to put forward the seceding party, as if they were the great body of the Church of Scotland. For his own part, he thought, instead of any complaints being made against him, that he, on the contrary, had great right to complain of the treatment that he had received, and of the conduct of many persons connected with the seceding body, in the part of the country with which he was more immediately connected. those districts, every species of agitation was resorted to, and no pains spared to excite the worst passions of the people. The agitators talked of toleration-it would be well if they only practised a little of that toleration themselves which they so loudly demanded from others. They had described him as a godless tyrant, who would trample down their rights; and this description of him had been given to one of the congregations during that most solemn period of divine service, the administration of the sacrament, and that language was applied to him by the person officiating. Though the worst feeling was thus exhibited against him, he hoped that he had preserved his own mind free from the influence of any angry sentiments. As he had so far occupied their Lordships' attention, he should just add, that having heard it was intended to perform divine service and administer the sacrament in one of the parishes with which he was connected, literally on the roadside, he wrote in order to have arrangements made for preventing this; it
did, however, take place within a field at had left the Established Church, by reno considerable distance. But it was not fusingthem the means of erecting places alone the congregation of one parish which of worship, abused the rights of property, met there; it was a vast concourse of and placed those rights in great jeopardy. people assembled from all the adjacent Though he did not agree in the principles parishes. What he said at that time was, that upon which the recent secession had taken he saw no reason why the parties, whose place, it was impossible not to admire and case was now under consideration, could respect the motives by which the seceding not do as o her Dissenters did-why, for members of the Church had been actuated example, thy might not go to the next they had acted in a most noble and town. Then he had been accused of dis- disinterested manner, and had sacrificed missing servants of his for joining the all prospects of worldly advantage for conFree Church. So far from that being the science' sake. It could not be said that fact, he had not interfered with overseers the Free Church did not inculcate sound of his who had exercised their influence doctrine and pure morality; but he rewith the labourers in his employment to gretted, with the noble Earl opposite the induce them to join the Free Church, intolerance manifested by some of its He had not been actuated by any illwill members. He thought, that while not a towards the Free Church of Scotland; few of them would resist persecution and he might state that he had in his themselves, they would not be slow to employment persons who had become persecute others; but he considered that members of that Church, and in whom the conduct of great landed propriehe placed the most entire confidence. A tors, who, after the disruption had taken great number of his tenants in different place, endeavoured to embarrass and parts of the country had also become harass the members of the Free Church, members of the Free Church, but with them he had had no difference. He believed that not one quarter of the discontent to which the noble Marquess had referred would have been manifested but for the itinerant agitators who had gone about the country, and who, instead of inculcating charitable feelings, had excited feelings of hostility against the Established Church and the landed proprietors. They had, in effect, used the language of a rev. gentleman who had taken a prominent part in that movement, that " the Establishment was a great moral nuisance, which ought to be swept from the face of the earth."
Lord Campbell said, he did not wish to throw any blame upon the noble Duke (Buccleuch), or the noble Earl (Cawdor), but he was anxious to state generally his sentiments upon a subject so interesting to his native country. He considered the noble Earl (Cawdor) was fully justified in doing everything in his power to prevent the disruption of the Church of Scotland; for in his (Lord Campbell's) opinion the disruption of that Church would be a tremendous national calamity. He thought that the Church of Scotland, for which he entertained the highest respect and reverence, had, for many generations conferred the greatest benefits upon that country. But he must say, that any great proprietor in a county or parish, who would endeavour to persecute those who
by preventing them from purchasing sites in localities where a place of worship was needed, was greatly to be deprecated. He believed there was no proprietor in Ireland, who, however strong his Protestantism might be, and however he might disapprove of the Popish religion, would not allow a site for the erection of a Roman Catholic Chapel. The law, as it now stood, was certainly in favour of those who refused such grants The petition presented by his noble Friend prayed that the law might be altered, and he considered that if these refusals were persisted in, some alteration would be necessary. In the case of the railroads their Lordships had interfered with the rights of private property in a manner which called forth the nightly vituperation of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), who had left the House. Having done this, he did not see why, if it became indispensably necessary, it would be any violation of the just rights of property, if, under certain restrictions, they should provide, that on reasonable compensation being given to a proprietor, sites should be granted for the erection of places of worship in connexion with the Free Church. This might be done by appeal to the Court of Session, or some other tribunal. He hoped, however, that such a step would not be necessary, and that if a reconciliation between the Established Church and the Free Church
was hopeless, both parties would remember that they were Christians.
ask these people to come back again; but with one voice, they protested against my resolution, and said, with an earnestness which bespoke the earnestness of their hearts, that if I would remain to preach, they would come back, and remain to hear me if it were till midnight."
The Marquess of Breadaibane replied. He thought the charge of intolerance imputed to the Free Church somewhat misapplied. He believed they were ready to act on the principle of giving toleration Were not such things enough to excite to all religious persuasions amongst the feelings of the people? As toleration others, to the Roman Catholic. This was the description given of one of these was, in theory, a part of the Constitution, meetings by the clergyman who offici-it ought to be observed in every part of
"I too, Sir, have been at Canobie; and never shall I forget the scene that was there presented to my sight. I went to Canobie amid snow and storm, and had formed the resolution within myself not to speak to them of the privations and sufferings they were undergoing. I was glad, Sir, that I had formed this resolution, for I could not have trusted myself to speak to them of the wrongs they were called to endure. When I went from Langholm on Sabbath morning to the place where I was to preach, the roads were covered with the melting snow, the wind was biting cold, the Esk was roaring in full flood, and a more bleak and wintry prospect it is impossible to conceive. On turning a point in the road, I suddenly came upon 500 people collected together to hear the Gospel; and so sudden, impressive, and desolate was the whole scene, that when it broke upon our view, the man who drove me to the spot looked in my face, and burst into tears. I never saw such a scene before; God grant that I may never see such a scene again! Had the Duke of Buccleuch been there, he could not have withheld his tears at the sight. The hardest heart must have melted to see so many, young and old, assembled on that open road for the worship of the God of their fathers. A tent was erected for me under the leafless branches of a tree, which, in truth, afforded little protection to me or to them: but, Sir, I found I could not preach in that tent, It may seem to some an unaccountable kind of feeling in me; but you can understand it. I felt as if I could not preach in that tent while those poor people stood shivering round me. I have been much struck to find that, in very similar circumstances, when preaching on a bleak moor, Richard Cameron, in his wanderings, was accommodated with a tent; but he felt that, while the people stood unprotected around him, he could not preach in it. It was with the same feeling that, upon this occasion, I could not preach to those people from the tent. I left it and took up my place upon the ground. Before I was half through with the sermon, lashing torrents of rain came down upon me, and soon I was almost as wet as if I had been dragged through the river that rolled by us in winter floods. On the conclusion of the service-while the rain fell heavy-I said to some gentlemen who were present, that it would be cruelty to
Petitions read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
NEW ZEALAND.] The Earl of Chichester presented a petition from the Church Missionary Society of Africa and the East, respecting the rights of the natives to the full enjoyment of their lands, and praying that the same may be effectually secured to them. It stated, that there were 35,000 attendants at religious worship, 15,000 scholars, and 300 native teachers. The petitioners stated, that from the period of the cession of the land by the native princes, they did everything to promote harmony between the aborigines and the colonists: that they were deeply impressed with the necessity of having the land question speedily and finally settled. That the Queen, by the Treaty of Waitangi, guaranteed full and undisputed possession of their lands to the natives, and that, in the opinion of the petitioners, the Report of the Committee of the House of Commons, affecting the rights of the native princes, was contrary to the principles of justice, and to the express declaration of the Treaty of Waitangi. Their Lordships could understand the alarm felt by the Society, whose petition he had read, as well as the alarm of all those who took an interest in their happiness and welfare. The missionaries of the Society were alarmed at a course of policy being suggested, the pursuance of which would set aside the Treaty of Waitangi, which provided, that natives should not have lands taken away from them by virtue of the sovereignty over the island, ceded by them to the British Crown. Nothing, he thought, could be more clear, than the actual meaning of the Treaty; and he believed that the New Zealanders were sufficiently enlightened and educated, perfectly to understand the interpretation which common sense would put upon it. To act in any way in contravention to the Treaty,
which he had seen on the state of New Zealand was most creditable to the missionaries, and proved them to be most
the great objects he had in making these remarks was, if possible, to draw from Government some assurance that the alarm felt by the petitioners, from the cause to which he had alluded, was unfounded. He believed that the maintenance of that interpretation hitherto put upon the Treaty of Waitangi was of the greatest importance to our own reputation for good faith, and to the cause of the civilization and progress of New Zealand. So long as the missionaries had been unmolested by voluntary settlers, nothing could have been more satisfactory than the way in which the natives had conducted themselves, and nothing more rapid than the progress they had made in Christian knowledge. He hoped that the Government would feel the great importance of promoting that object, and would recollect that it could only be attained by maintaining the strictest good faith towards the natives themselves—by showing that we were alive to their bet interests, and that we had taken New Zealand under our protection, as much with a view to their benefit as our own.
would be to pursue a course at once fraught with disaster to the natives and to the settlers in New Zealand. He wished to take the opportunity of making a state-worthy and disinterested men. One of ment to the House upon the part of the Church Missionary Society, because, among other charges made by the friends of the Company, was one which accused the missionaries in New Zealand of having acted in an improper manner; of having, in fact, impeded the progress of the Colony, and of having obtained-not by the most reputable means-a very large quantity of land. Now, the land in question was held under certain regulations made by the Missionary Society, which allowed a certain sum of money to the missionaries for every child above fifteen years of age; that money had been invested in the purchase of land, obtained, not for the private advantages of the missionaries, but for the public good. The regulations had been strictly acted upon in these purchases, and he possessed authentic information of the exact quantity of land so obtained. The Society had also purchased a certain portion of the land for the purposes of the mission, but the whole of this property had been placed at the disposal of the Crown. No missionary held more land than he was strictly entitled to hold under the regulations of the Lord Stanley: Your Lordships will feel Society, and there was no instance of a mis- that it would be very inconvenient were I sionary's claim having been disallowed by at all to enter at this time upon the gethe Government Commissioner. In the cases neral question connected with New Zeain which a reduction had been made in the land. I have no intention of troubling quantity of land possessed by missionaries, you with a single word upon that subject; the reduction had been effected with the but the noble Earl has indicated a desire perfect consent of the holders. He would to hear the views of Her Majesty's Goremind the House of the favourable testi-vernment as to that Treaty by which the mony borne to the conduct of the missionaries of the Church Society, by all who had had an opportunity of witnessing it. New Zealand had been visited by many travellers-some of them in an official capacity; it had been recently visited by two bishops, and the conduct of the missionaries had also been watched by wit-upon the Government in the matter-that nesses not likely to be partial to them he meant the emissaries of a neighbouring, not a rival institution-the Wesleyan mission-the missionaries of the Church Society had been watched, and their conduct had been commented upon by all those witnesses to it, and he had never heard it asserted that they had been led away from their ministerial duties by any occupation connected with the possession of land. On the contrary, every report
sovereignty of New Zealand was ceded to the British Crown. I have no hesitation in giving the noble Earl the assurance which he seems to desire. At the same time, however, I should have thought— whatever may have been the suspicionswhatever may have been the blame cast
the course which they have pursued would have prevented its being imagined for a moment that they entertained an idea of avoiding, or in any way violating a Treaty by which they consider themselves to be bound. Almost the whole of the difficulty with which the Government has had to contend in New Zealand, has arisen out of the apparently conflicting engagements entered into towards the New Zealand Company on the one hand, and, under