and before it passes out from under the jurisdictional control, and the claims are made against the United States- The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Will you permit me to call your attention to the fact that the only desire that we now have is for information as to whether or not vou are in accord with the Bureau of Indian Affairs with regard to the modification of this bill or its presentation in a modified form in a period which Mr. Meritt says can be done, within 15 days' time, and then we can discuss the merits of these two matters which have been determined upon by you and we may not have to listen to the arguments you are now making. Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I think that is the proper method of procedure; but I want to suggest The CHAIRMAN (interposing). But, just conveying Mr. BALLINGER (interposing). Gentlemen, that is entirely impossible for us to know what the motive of the Indian Bureau is, or what they propose to do. That we can't The CHAIRMAN (interposing). But you state you are working now in unison with the bureau to prepare a measure which will meet with your desires Mr. ELLSWORTH (interposing). If you will put the question, "Try to do". The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Of course I intended to convey that in my question. Mr. BALLINGER. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we will be very glad to cooperate. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I intended to convey in my original question. Mr. BALLINGER. We shall be very glad to do that. The CHAIRMAN. I am not desirous of shutting off debate here, neither am I trying to get away from argument, and I know the committee feels the same way as do I about that, but if you are going to come to an agreement with regard to this you should reach your agreement and then we could discuss what you had agreed upon afterwards. Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that we reach an agreement so far as we can on the matters in the bill and leave only the few things upon which we may not be able to agree to for discussion before the committee. Mr. MERITT. What we would like to do is to get together on this proposed legislation. Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Meritt, the jurisdictional bill as drawn is satisfactory to the general council. There are a few changes we would like to have in it, but, as I say, it is substantially satisfactory. Mr. MERITT. Mr. Chairman, it is very important that we give the greatest care to any legislation relating to the Chippewa Indians, as it is well known to the older members of Congress that legislation was passed a few years ago relating to a part of the Chippewa country that resulted in a great loss and scandal. A large number of the Indians were defrauded of their property on the White Earth Reservation. The property amounted to millions of dollars, and I think the gentlemen from Minnesota will agree that statement is correct. Mr. ELLSWORTH. But where is the conflict in regard to this matter? r. MERITT. The conflict here is between the Chippewa Indians themselves, and we have got to protect the interests of all of the Indians. We are in hearty accord with the desires of the committee and the desires of the Indians to wind up the affairs of the Chippewa Indians just as quickly as we possibly can. I wanted to make a statement when we were discussing the Chippewa fund, but I did not care to interrupt at that time. Congress has heretofore authorized us to distribute one-fourth of those funds. Now, with regard to the provision of law referred to by Mr. Carter. In my judgment, Congress has absolute authority to make any distribution of those funds. The Supreme Court has held that an act of Congress carries just as much solemnity as an agreement or a treaty with the Indians, and it is absolutely in the hands of Congress as to what disposition should be made of these funds, and within the last week we have submitted to the Senate Indian Committee a provision for the authorization of a distribution of $5,000,000 of these funds, reserving $1,000,000 for school purposes, and it is the desire of the bureau to distribute these funds just as quickly as we can get authority. We do not want to supervise the affairs of competent Indians. Competent Indians should supervise their own affairs. There are a large number of Chippewa Indians who are known to be competent, and those Indians we think ought to have their funds and have any claims in any property that they are entitled to have, and we will be glad to go over this matter with representatives of the tribe and try to work out legislation which will be satisfactory to all of the Indians and submit it to Congress at the earliest possible date. Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Chairman, may I make a suggestion so that we may understand when this matter is to come up and is going to be gone over, that a day certain be set so that on that day certain notice may be given to any persons who may be interested that consideration by this committee is being given to legislation that may be detrimental to the interests of the Chippewas, so that the committee may be in position to be fully advised. The CHAIRMAN. What would you say to a date about March 5? Mr. BALLINGER. I would prefer an earlier date, Mr. Chairman, if you could let us have it, as to-day is the 21st day of January. The CHAIRMAN. I appreciate, of course, what little responsibility there might devolve upon me in this matter, but I would like to be here, but I will not be here after the 5th of February until the 4th of March, and I would prefer, of course, to have the hearings after that period, unless it would be possible for them to be held before the 5th of February. Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Chairman, in view of that statement, I ask that they go over until after the 5th of March. The CHAIRMAN. I shall be back in Washington on the 3d or 4th of March and we can take the matter up then. Mr. BALLINGER. Then why would it not be satisfactory-I have not examined the calendar-why would it not be satisfactory for us to say the first Monday after the 4th day of March? The CHAIRMAN. That would be entirely agreeable to me, if it is to the rest of the committee. Mr. BALLINGER. And, Mr. Chairman, I want to make the further request. Mr. Meritt in speaking about the Indians being dissatisfied with this kind of legislation states that some of them are dissatisfied. The Indian Bureau must know who those Indians are and it is of course impracticable to bring a great number of Indians down here, but I would suggest that the Indian Bureau bring an intelligent representative of that faction here so that he may make known to the committee with certainty his objections to the legislation. The CHAIRMAN. I think, of course, that should be done. Mr. CARTER. I have tried to make what I had in my mind very clear but I still see that there are some things that I have mentioned, some contentions with regard to the power of Congress not quite clear. Of course, the power of Congress is practically settled by the decisions cited. There can be no doubt in the world as to that. The only contention is this: I am trying to make it plain that in case this matter is settled up and in case these Indians who are born after a division of these funds is made make a demand and come back to the committee in future years, probably the committee will send them to the Court of Claims and they will get a judgment against the United States for funds because this property was divided before 1939. Now, that is the only contention I make. It goes not to the power of Congress but as to the rights and claims of these Indians yet unborn. I think the bureau mas made recommendations right along this line. I believe the courts may have rendered decisions in point and I am frank to confess I am not quite clear as to just what might happen in case these new fellows should come back. Now, the question I want to ask Mr. Meritt,-He says, of course, and we all subscribe to the law of the land-he says the Supreme Court has held, which it has, that Congress has a right to violate these treaties or to violate any of these treaties that it wants to of course Mr. MERITT (interposing). Of course Congress only takes into consideration the interests of the Indians. Mr. CARTER. What I want to ask is this, does the Bureau of Indian Affairs subscribe to that policy?. Mr. MERITT. I think we have no objection to that as a policy. Mr. CARTER. Then the policy of the Indian Bureau, no matter what sacred agreements they may have with the Indians, whenever the bureau sees fit to change those agreements, that it is its policy to change those agreements without consulting the authorities of the tribe. Mr. MERITT. No; I did not make that statement. Not at all. Mr. MERITT. No; I did not make that statement at all; I would not want those words to be put into my mouth. Mr. CARTER. Well, now, that is exactly what I understood you to say, Mr. Meritt. Mr. MERITT. No; I based my statement upon the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States and the Indian Bureau has no fault to find with that decision. That is as far as I care to go on that proposition. Mr. CARTER. You do not care to say whether the bureau or what the policy of the bureau has with regard to going further- The CHAIRMAN (interposing). He simply stated that the bureau has no objection to a policy of that kind. Mr. MERITT. I think the Congress of the United States can be relied upon to protect the interests of the Indians. Mr. CARTER. Yes. Mr. MERITT. And I think it is within the authority of Congress to authorize the distribution of these Chippewa funds, notwithstanding the fact that there is a provision on the statute books which says that the funds shall not be distributed until the expiration of 50 I think that the legistation of that character is absolutely detrimental to the interests of the Chippewa Indians. I think the best interests of the Indians would be to make a distribution of this proprety now so that the able-bodied competent Indians can use that fund rather than have that fund passed on down to the next generation. Mr. CARTER. I agree with that. Now, what I want to ask is then if a claim should come in from these Chippewa Indians born hereafter, so long as you are connected with the Indian Bureau they would not have the approval of your bureau for funds out of the Federal Treasury. Mr. MERITT. No, sir; I do not believe that they would get anywhere with any such a claim. Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest with regard to the legal question that if the members of the committee will examine the case of Minnesota v. Hitchcock, (187 U. S.), and the. case of the United States v. Mille Lac Indians (229 U, S.), it will probably clear them up with reference to this matter. Mr. MERITT. We are familiar with those decisions. The CHAIRMAN. If there are no objections, we will adjourn the committee with regard to hearings on this particular subject until Monday, March 8, 1920, at 10.30 o'clock, a. m. (Whereupon, at 12.20 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned.) SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Washington, Monday, February 9, 1920. The subcommittee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. John A. Elston presiding. Mr. ELSTON. The committee will please come to order. In the absence of Mr. Snyder, it falls to me to call the meeting to order as chairman. It would be well for Mr. Meritt, who is here this morning, to explain to us just what the purpose of this hearing is. STATEMENT OF MR. EDGAR B. MERITT, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS. Mr. MERITT. Mr. Chairman, a few days ago about 20 full-blood members of the Chippewa Reservations came into our office somewhat unexpectedly and wanted to be heard regarding their affairs. We did not know that they were even coming to Washington until after they had arrived here. After hearing these Indians we thought it only proper that they should be heard by the House Committee on Indian Affairs inasmuch as they will have to leave the city very shortly, being without funds, and inasmuch as this Chippewa matter is coming up at the regular hearing on March 8. These Indians will be unable to be here at that time. Mr. ELSTON. Their testimony will bear on what bill that is before the committee? Mr. MERITT. There is a bill, H. R. 12103, introduced by Mr. Ellsworth, being entitled, "A bill to aid in winding up the affairs of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota." There are several provisions in this bill which are exceedingly objectionable to the full-blood Chippewa Indians and also to the Red Lake Indians. First, they object to the general council of the Chippewa Indians having a representation on the commission to wind up their affairs, claiming that that council does not represent the full-blood Indians and that they are opposed to their interests. Second, the Red Lake Indians are opposed to the provisions in the bill regarding the allotments on the Red Lake Reservation. We have recently received protests from the Red Lake Indians against allotting of their reservation. It is claimed by the Red Lake Indians that the general council of the Chippewa Indians want the Red Lake Reservation allotted so that they can later share in the surplus property of the Red Lake Indians, and the Red Lake Indians claim that the White Earth Indians and the other Indians from the other reservations besides the Red Lake are not entitled to share in that property. There has been also a protest filed against an appropriation for a number of years for the general council of the Chippewa Indians. The full-blood Indians claim that if there is an appropriation to be made it should be made annually rather than for a period of years. The old Indians who are here also refer back to some of the old treaties and claim that those treaties have not been carried out. They were not able to explain to the office very fully their meaning in the short hearing that we gave them, but we will give them another hearing and try to find out just what they want. Mr. ELSTON. Are the Indians now present here represented by counsel at this hearing? Mr. MERITT. No, sir. Mr. ELSTON. They are to testify, every one being his own spokes man. Mr. MERITT. Yes, sir. Mr. ELSTON. This matter was called at this early date upon the request of the department, and I understand at the urgent request of Representative Carss, of Minnesota, who is very much interested in the mattter and who desired that these Indians have as early a hearing as possible in order that they would not be put to great expense by delay. Mr. Carss has represented the matter in such a way as to indicate that it would be proper for us to have this meeting this morining. Representative Carss, do you desire to make any statement at this time. STATEMENT OF HON. W. L. CARSS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM MINNESOTA. Mr. CARSS. I have no statement to make. I was interested in this matter to find out just as much as I could about the conflicting claims, and it was represented to me that these men were not financially able to remain over until the regular hearing, and in order to enable them to put their claims before the committee, I made this |