educational institutions to be found in that country. Those little sisters have performed wonders among the Chippewa children. They are taking the Chippewa Indian children at $110 per year, feeding them, clothing them, and providing them with every essential necessary to life and to education; and yet the tribe is paying for the children in the departmental Government schools from $275 to $300 per year for employees alone. Now, Mr. Chairman, the figures I have given you with reference to the cost of employees at these boarding schools are from the report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1919.

In that year there was a substantial reduction in the cost over previous years, and that cost of employees has no relation, please understand, to the cost of the agency employees. They are separate and distinct and in addition. Now, the bill as drafted by direction of the general council, and as agreed to by the Indian Bureau, will put an end to this condition. Provision is made to aid the State of Minnesota in the extension of the public-school system of that State to these Indians so that they will have proper school facilities at home. Last year, Mr. Chairman, at White Earth, the Indians in that country who are the taxpayers made great complaint against the general conditions, moral, educational, and almost everything pertaining to the Government boarding school then being maintained at that place, and last year the department surrendered the school building to the county and State authorities and they have at their own expense this year maintained for the first time one of the best schools in the State. It is now a public school maintained by the taxpayers. It was a heavy burden to throw upon them at first and they made application to the department for the allowance of a part of their interest money to aid the State authorities and the county authorities in putting the school upon its feet, but not a dollar were they able to obtain. The Indian appropriation bill, thanks to you gentlemen, this year contains an appropriation which will enable them to use a part of their school fund for this purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask you, Mr. Ballinger, as you seem to be well posted on Indian Service matters, what you think of this provision in the present appropriation bill, that is, the appropriation bill for 1920-21, which states:

Provided, That all reservation and nonreservation boarding schools with an average attendance of less than 45 and 80 pupils, respectively, shall be discontinued on or before the fiscal year 1921.

Mr. BALLINGER. I think it is a wise provision.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, will that have the effect of clearing up to some extent the situation you speak of?

Mr. BALLINGER. No; Mr. Chair.nan, it would not, because these are not reservation and nonreservation boarding schools maintained out of the Public Treasury, and I am apprehensive

The CHAIRMAN. This, as I understand it, covers all schools, whether or not they are maintained out of the public funds.

Mr. BALLINGER. I hope it will obtain that construction, but from my experience I take it that it is going to be limited to schools maintained out of the Public Treasury.

The CHAIRMAN. If that is so, and it will be interpreted in that way, we want to serve notice that that will be corrected in the next bill. Mr. MERITT. It will be construed so that the legislation will apply not only to gratuity appropriations, but to tribal funds.

The CHAIRMAN. I am very glad you will do that because that was the clear understanding of the committee.

Mr. MERITT. We are heartily in favor of it.

Mr. BALLINGER. Now, Mr. Chairman, I come to a provision that has to deal with the proposed legislation which is of greater importance to the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota than any other provision in the bill. It relates to those provisions of the bill which provide for the preparation of rolls of competent and incompetent Indians. For 30 years Congress has been making annual appropriations upon the basis of the entire membership of the Chippewa Tribe, namely, 12,000 Indians. In every justification transmitted by the department for the appropriations asked for will appear the total number of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota-twelve thousand and some odd. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, between 30 and 40 per cent of that membership has left the Chippewa country. They are scattered throughout the United States, taking their part with white men and making good in every walk and avenue and profession of life, and yet those men have been included in statements transmitted here as a basis for appropriations. Mr. Chairman, from 1890 down to the last year there has been an annual drag upon the trust funds of the Indians ranging from $75,000 to $185,000 per annum; and in my judgment, and in the judgment of the general council, that money, or at least 75 per cent of it, has been thrown away.

It has been worse than thrown away. It has been used in the employment of a vast horde of employees in that country who have deprived the Indians of their lawful rights. Instead of handing them that which the law commanded them to they withhold it from them. Let me give you an illustration. Under the agreement of 1899 it was provided that the interest money should be paid in cash to them. That little interest money aggregating about $18 per capita per annum was not paid in cash to them, but accounts were opened on the books of the agencies and in the banks. In 1916 when the General Council commenced functioning they found little accounts up there ranging from $1, 50 cents, and 5 cents up. I remember that I transmitted to the department one of the statements from the agents showing that the man had 5 cents to his credit. The administration of these little accounts cost the Chippewa Indians anywhere from $20,000 to $30,000 per annum, and that money was being withheld from them in absolute defiance of the law.

Mr. DALLINGER. You mean $18 per capita?

Mr. BALLINGER. $18 per head-per man, woman, and child. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to be fair with the Indian Bureau about this. The General Council when it first entered its protest to the department received but scant recognition, but finally these matters got into the hands of Mr. Meritt, and I want to say that Mr. Meritt has, as far as he could, been eminently fair with us in dealing with these matters. Of course, when he ran into the question of the department policy his hands were tied, but in other respects he has been fair. As the result of the work of the General Council there was a division of one-fourth of the principal fund, amounting to $130 per capita, that was paid out. That money was placed around in banks, ant when an Indian wanted $25, for instance, if he was living up ad

Grand Portage, out 75 miles from the agency, he made his application and the agent sent a man out from the agency, 40 to 75 miles, to make an investigation as to whether or not the man actually needed the $25; and the cost of the investigation in most instances, I think I can correctly state, cost more than the man finally got. The CHAIRMAN. What fund was that paid from?

Mr. BALLINGER. That money was paid out of the trust funds, out of appropriations made by Congress of $185,000 per annum. The result was that when we finally got down to dealing with the Indian Bureau, and after they recognized the council about a year ago, orders were issued to pay these funds out, everything less than $50 for the incompetent, and where the Indian had received his patent in fee to pay it all out to him. But even at the present time much of these funds still remain intact. Mr. Fairbanks, who is a member of the General Council-and I expect that Mr. Fairbanks in his business operations could employ a good portion of the Indian Bureau employees and pay them better salaries than they are now receivingcould not receive the funds or bonds of his little children, which are still being held by the agency and have not been turned over to him. Mr. Rogers, who is county attorney for Cass County and who looks after the legal affairs of the white people in that country-his bonds, the bonds of his little children, purchased out of their trust funds, had not, the last time I was advised, been turned over to him. I pause to inquire of Mr. Rogers if they have yet been turned over to him.

Mr. ROGERS. I had myself appointed as the legal guardian and the bonds were then turned over to me.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask Mr. Rogers how long it has been since he began to try to get control of this fund.

Mr. ROGERS. The money for my children?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. ROGERS. About two years ago last summer.

The CHAIRMAN. And you just got it now?

Mr. ROGERS. I got it last year.

The CHAIRMAN. What time last year? I want to fix as nearly as I can the length of time it took you to get it.

Mr. ROGERS. It took about a year and six months.

Mr. HASTINGS. What degree of blood are the children? Are they full-blood children?

Mr. ROGERS. No, my children are mixed blood. There is no qualification as to whether they are full or three-quarters. I am just classed as a mixed blood.

Mr. HASTINGS. Was your father a white man?

Mr. ROGERS. My father was a white man.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the fact that you are a mixed blood militate against you in any way in getting control of the funds of your children?

Mr. ROGERS. No; I don't think so.

The CHAIRMAN. There was nothing in the law that prevented you from getting control of it on account of your being a mixed blood? Mr. ROGERS. No.

Mr. BALLINGER. You received a patent in fee for your land? Mr. ROGERS. Yes; I am a full-fledged citizen; I received a patent in fee.

Mr. HASTINGS. What was the amount of the bonds of your children?

Mr. ROGERS. Four hundred dollars.

Mr. BALLINGER. Was that the total?

Mr. ROGERS. I got $400 in bonds, and I got $130 in cash.

Mr. HASTINGs. How many children have you; I mean that have bonds?

Mr. ROGERS. Four. They each have a hundred-dollar bond. The CHAIRMAN. Now, in order to get control of this fund, just what did you have to do?

Mr. ROGERS. Are you speaking to me?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I am speaking to you, Mr. Rogers.

Mr. ROGERS. Why, at first I took it up with the agent and he said that he had no authority to turn it over to me, and I personally took it up with Mr. Miller, whom I believe was on the Indian Committee at the time. He was in the House, anyhow. He might have taken it up with the department. They eventually wrote me stating that if I appeared before the court and had myself appointed guardian and gave a bond that they would then turn the bonds over to me, which I did. I had myself appointed guardian and I gave bond, and the bonds were eventually turned over to me, in addition to the $130.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the nature of these bonds--Liberty bonds?

Mr. ROGERS. Liberty bonds.

The CHAIRMAN. And these bonds were purchased by the department with money that belonged to your children?

Mr. ROGERS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. MERITT. Mr. Chairman, in order that the record may be clear I would like to have him state how long after he was appointed guardian this money was turned over to him.

The CHAIRMAN. That is fair. How long after you were appointed guardian of your children did it take you to come into possession of these funds?

Mr. ROGERS. Well, I don't exactly recollect now, but I think something like six months.

The CHAIRMAN. Something like six months?

Mr. ROGERS. Yes.

Mr. MERITT. Mr. Chairman, may I have the records looked up in that particular case and put it on the record?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I would be glad to have you in your statement give us any information you desire upon that particular matter. Mr. BALLINGER. Now, Mr. Chairman, since that bond question has come up I want to make a statement in fairness to Mr. Meritt and also to the General Council. When they commenced investing the funds of the Indians in Government bonds, these little interest payments under the agreement of 1889 were to be used for their support and to be paid in cash to their parents. I filed a written. objection with the department, explaining that I did not want it to be understood that any of the Indians were unpatriotic, but that these little sums could help the Government but little and that they would be needed by the Indians, many of them, in properly educating and caring for their children. The funds were, however,

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invested in Government bonds contrary to law. Subsequent to the bureau's recognition of the General Council a little over a year ago I took the matter up with Mr. Meritt of the Indian Bureau, and an order was issued directing the delivery of the bonds to the parents in all cases where the parents had received patents in fee and to restricted parents where they would have themselves appointed legal guardians. We discovered then that in order to get a Government bond belonging to children of $50 or $100 in condition to be converted into cash it was necessary to go into court and incur an expense of anywhere from $15 to $30 in the appointment of a legal guardian. The department with the General Council thereafter worked out a scheme whereby the Government redeemed these bonds and paid the money over to the Indians. When the Indian wanted money for the bond he had to sell it at a discount of about 10 per cent. So that when it was finally converted, until this arrangement was worked out with the department, there was practically nothing left of a $50 bond for the Indian. Mr. Meritt cooperated finally in that and we made a saving to these people easily of $125,000 on the bonds alone.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I say without fear of contradiction that at least 85 to 90 per cent of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota are competent to handle their own affairs, as competent as are the white people of the State, their neighbors. There are some up there who ought, in my judgment, to remain under some supervision. The old Indian can probably never be reformed. The young Indian, in my judgment, is probably better off if you will give him his money and throw him upon his own responsibility with notice that that is all he is going to get. If he squanders it in his younger days he has an opportunity to retrieve his lost fortune. If you do that with the old Indian and he squanders it he will then become a charge upon the State. For that reason I think it would be well to liberate the young Indian in almost every instance, but it would be best to hold on to the old Indian. And this bill in my judgment will work out a plan by which every Indian in that country will be liberated within a comparatively short time. Those who are found to be competent will be instantly liberated, and those who are found to be incompetent will receive their money, not at the whim and fancy of some Government officer and after costly inquiry, but in regular annual payments for a series of years. The same plan has been tried among the Kaw Indians and worked admirably. That feature of the bill was taken from the law drafted by Senator Curtis.

Mr. HASTINGS. I am not familiar with the provisions of this bill, but does it provide for the appointment of a commission to pass upon the competency of the Chippewa Indians?

Mr. BALLINGER. Yes.

Mr. HASTINGS. Is final authority given to that commission?
Mr. BALLINGER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HASTINGS. The commission does not have to report to the Interior Department? The finding of the commission in that respect does not require the approval of the department?

Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Hastings, that commission is to be composed of three men, one to be appointed by the President, one by the Secretary of the Interior, and one by the General Council so that the