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In line 2, strike out the words, “parent or.” So that the provision would read: And should any such minor child, either of whose parents are not enrolled as incompetents. Mr. MERITT. We favor that amendment. The CHAIRMAN. That is passed for the present. Mr. BALLINGER. In line 19, after the word “all” insert “merchantable.” The object and F." of that is to enable them to cut and dispose of all merchantable timber without denuding the land of all timber on it. Mr. MERITT. There is no objection to that amendment, Mr. ChairIman. The CHAIRMAN. That is passed. Mr. BALLINGER. Commencing with the word “which” in line 21, page 11, strike out the remainder of that line and all of lines 22, 23, and down to and including the figures “400” in line 24. The provision as drafted by the department is involved, and the object and purpose of this provision is to permit the sale of all the lands in or outside of reservations. As drafted by the department it would include only a part of them. Mr. ELSTON. Well, without the qualifying reference to these acts it would then have the effect of canceling all previous acts and giving a blanket authority to dispose of all the timber. Mr. MERITT. Except }. that has already been disposed of under contract. Mr. ELSTON. Of course, that would be a legal limitation. No act could interfere with any agreement already made. We can not refuse to sell something that has already been sold. The CHAIRMAN. Let us see what Mr. Meritt has to say about that. Mr. MERITT. We wanted this legislation tied up, as it were, with revious legislation enacted by Congress, and for the reasons stated K. Mr. Elston we thought that language should remain in the bill. The CHAIRMAN. That is passed for the present, unless Mr. Henderson has something he wants to say about it. Mr. HENDERSON. I have not. Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Chairman, that is a very important thing to the committee, and when you come to take it up you will want to know about it. The lands that were classified as pine lands up there— and those will be the only lands here included under the provision as drafted by the department—did not include much of the valuable stands of timber in that country. Upon this swamp land that is to come back there are just as valuable stands of timber as upon the lands classified as pine lands, and this provision ought to be broad enough to enable th. disposition of that timber. The CHAIRMAN. I agree with you. Mr. MERITT. We would have no objection to that language including swamp lands recovered—such language as you desire. Mr. BALLINGER. You will see when you come to examine this section in committee that is is an unworkable proposition as presented by the department. The CHAIRMAN. That is passed for the present. Mr. BALLINGER. In line 25, page 11, reinstate the words stricken out, “belonging to the Chippewas’’; and then, on page 12, commenc
ing with the word "except” in line 1, strike out the remainder of that line, all of line 2, and down to and including the word “reserve” in line 3. And let me make another amendment or two here, and then I want to read it to you as amended.
In line 6, strike out the words "said amendatory” and insert in lieu thereof the word “the.”
In line 7, after the figures "1902” and before the colon, insert “Thirty-second Statutes at Large, page 400).”
Now, if you will permit me to read the text as amended: That as compensation for losses sustained by the Chippewa Indians in Minnesota for the failure to sell and dispose of lands ceded to the United States in trust under the provisions of the act of January 14, 1899, and subsequently included in forest and other reserves, contrary to the intent of said act, the Secretary of the Interior is hereby directed to proceed and dispose of all merchantable timber on any such lands remaining undisposed of, including the timber on any or all of said lands, belonging to the Chippewas, and within the limits of any Indian reservation; said timber to be sold under rules and regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, which shall conform, as far as practicable, to the provisions of the act of June 27, 1902 (32 Stat. L., p. 400).
The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further to be said upon that?
Mr. MERITT. Mr. Chairman, we are agreeable to the amendment in line 19, page 11, inserting the word "merchantable.” We are opposed to striking out the language in lines 21 to 24, reading as follows: which were classified as pine lands under the said act of January 14, 1899, and the amendatory act of June 27, 1902 (32 Stat. L., p. 400).
We have no objection to restoring the language in line 25, “belonging to the Chippewas.”
We object seriously to striking out the language except the Red Lake Reservation that has since January 14, 1899, been included in any forest or other reserve,” for the reasons heretofore stated.
We do not object to the amendment suggested in line 6, striking out "said amendatory” and inserting the word "the.”
We also have no objection to the amendment including the statute number.
Mr. ELSTON. For the reasons heretofore stated? Will you just state them?
Mr. MERITT. The reason is that we do not want the question of the title to the Red Lake Reservation attempted to be decided in the proposed legislation. We prefer that that shall go to the Court of Claims.
The CHAIRMAN. That is passed for the present.
Mr. BALLINGER. On page 12, line 17, reinsert the words stricken out, viz: “and undisposed of.”.
In lines 17 and 18 strike out the words in italics, and not included in any reserve and not disposed of.” The departmental draft would relate only to lands that were not in reserves, and the object and purpose of the amendment is to include both reserved and unreserved land. For instance, you have up there four reservations ceded in 1889, that are still being maintained as reservations, and the object and purpose of this amendment is to catch those reservations and clean them up.
Mr. Elston. The words "disposed of” though might include sales. You don't intend to bring that into the purview of this act, lands disposed of by sale ?
Mr. BALLINGER. 'No-and undisposed of.
Mr. HENDERSON. Mr. Chairman, the Red Lake Indians would be opposed to that change for obvious reasons.
The CHAIRMAN. State one or two of them.
Mr. HENDERSON. There is involved, of course, there, the fundamental question as to whether these lands have been ceded whether what is within their diminished reservation has been ceded. That of itself would be sufficient, I should say, to induce them to ask that that provision be included.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Meritt, have you anything to say ?
Mr. Meritt. No, sir; nothing in addition to what Mr. Henderson said.
The CHAIRMAN. That is passed for the present. What is next?
Mr. BALLINGER. The next amendment is on page 12, line 23, strike out the word “designated” and insert the word appointed."
The CHAIRMAN. Is there any objection to that, Mr. Meritt?
Mr. BALLINGER. On page 12, line 24, after the word “the” and before the words "general council' insert "the executive committee of the.” That is the same question I called your attention to on page 1.
Mr. MERITT. We have already stated our objection to that proposed amendment.
The CHAIRMAN. What is the next?
Mr. BALLINGER. On line 25, strike ont the words: "and appointed by the Secretary of the Interior.” In other words, the general council do not want to select a representative and then have him appointed by the Secretary of the Interior, because he may not make the appointment, and the amendment just agreed to in line 23 renders unnecessary the language I have asked to have stricken out.
Mr. Elston. My objection to the word “appointed” instead of "designated” was just predicated upon the fact that you were mentioning right after that word the only appointing power. Of course if it is intended here that the designation should be made by the general council and the apppointment by the Secretary of the Interior, the words “designated" would be the proper word to be used up above.
The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything to say on that, Mr. Meritt? Mr. MERITT. We have no serious objection to the proposed amendment by Mr. Ballinger, but we think it would be preferable to have the language remain in the bill as it is.
The CHAIRMAN. That is passed then.
Mr. BALLINGER. Mr. Chairman, right on that point, so you will get clearly the position of the general council on it; their object is not to have their representative man responsible for his position to the Secretary of the Interior. If they do, and he makes any complaint, they can remove him and get rid of him.
The CHAIRMAN. I think we all understand that.
Mr. BALLINGER. On page 13, line 2, after the word "land" insert the words: "including any timber thereon."
The CHAIRMAN. Is there any objection to that, Mr. Meritt?
Mr. MERITT. Will you state your reasons for that, Mr. Ballinger? Mr. BALLINGER. (Reading:) And upon a completion of the allotments herein authorized, all of said land, including any timber thereon, so remaining unallotted and undisposed of, or to which no i. right has been initiated, shall be put up and sold at public auction to the highest 101Cler. That would take in the timber on the land. Mr. Rhodes. Wouldn't the timber be carried with the designation “land” anyway, because it is part of the realty, attached to the earth' Mr. ELSTON. It seems to me that is the absolute, general right, as Mr. Rhodes says. The right to the land carries the timber with it. Mr. RHODEs. Let us hear his reasons. Mr. BALLINGER. Ordinarily that is true, and if we were dealing with a court it would be unnecessary, but we are dealing with the Interior Department, where they construe things differently, and in the appraisal of the land the council wants them to take into consideration the value of the timber on it, and they want the language so clear that there can be no doubt about it. Mr. RHoDEs. Has the department ever failed to recognize that principle of common law which means that land includes everything attached to the earth, including standing and growing timber, together with improvements erected thereon 8 r. BALLINGER. I think I could cite to you several instances in which that has occurred, and that is why we are taking the overprecaution right here. Mr. RHODEs. I never heard of that anywhere in our system of English jurisprudence. . . Mr. Elston. We have got that stated now, and I think the committee understands it. The CHAIRMAN. We will proceed to the next. Mr. MERITT. Mr. Chairman, we have no objection to that amendment, and I want to say that we always recognize that an Indian allottee owns the timber on his allotment unless there is specific provision of law which reserves the timber for the benefit of the tribe and simply gives the Indian the land. Mr. BALLINGER. On page 14, at the end of line 8, insert the following: Provided. That the Secretary of the Interior may dispose of so much of Cooper or Star Island in Cass Lake and so much of the land bordering on the eastern, southeastern, and southern shores of Cass Lake and commonly known as Norway Beach, and the lands adjoining the western shores of Pine Point on Leech Lake, and the standing timber thereon as remains undisposed of, in tracts of limited areas for permanent or summer homes, hotels, or resorts, under regulations to be prescribed by §: . Secretary and approved by the executive committee of the Chippewa General ounc11. There are some of the most valuable sites for summer resorts to be found in the United States there. There are a large number of summer homes in that section to-day where homes have been constructed under revocable permits. Now, the object and purpose of this is to enable the Secretary of the Interior, under rules and regulations to be prescribed by him, to dispose of this valuable land to the best advantage of the Indians, and to preserve that country— this land—for summer homes and localities. Now, the last portion of it I expect the department will take exception to—“under rules
and regulations to be prescribed by the said Secretary and approved by the executive committee of the Chippewa's General Council.” §e reason they ask that is that the Chippewa's executive committee think they know more about the values of those lands and how they should be disposed of than the Interior Department, and this will require the department to consult them before they can be disposed of, so that they may submit whatever plans they may have to get the best returns for the Indians. The CHAIRMAN. What have you to say on that, Mr. Meritt? Mr. MERITT. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ballinger has stated the objections of the Indian Bureau. The language that he has proposed is absurd when we consider it carefully. We have the Secretary of the Interior, a Cabinet officer, preparing regulations regarding the disposition of tribal property, and the Secretary of the Interior would be required to submit those regulations to the exceutive committee of the Chipewa Council for approval. Now, as they have brought out in this hearing, this executive committee of the Chippewa General Council is opposed by probably 40 or 45 per cent of #. Indians of Minnesota, and the Secretary of the Interior would not want to be placed in that position. The CHAIRMAN. It is simply a question for this committee or the Congress to determine which one of the two bodies they believe . have the power to direct the transaction. Mr. ELSTON. Now, as to the balance of the amendment, you have no objection ? Mr. MERITT. We would want to look into this amendment very carefully, but inasmuch as it would be discretionary with the Secretary, with the language that I am objecting to stricken out, we would have no objection to the item going into the bill, but we would not carry out the legislation if it proved detrimental to the interests of the Chippewa Indians. § HENDERSON. May I ask a question of Mr. Meritt? This proviso is that the Secretary of the Interior may dispose of “so much.” That is, the Secretary of the Interior now has power to dispose of this property? r. MERITT. I think it would require legislation to give title to certain tracts of land up there for allotment purposes. We have executed business leases on some of those reservations, and resort roperties have been constructed under the terms of those business eases. Some people have taken big chances in expending considerable money on property to which they did not hold title. Mr. BALLINGER. And pay no taxes. Mr. ELSTON. Do they pay rentals? Mr. MERITT. They pay rentals. Mr. ELSTON. Nominal rentals : Mr. MERITT. Nominal rentals. The CHAIRMAN. That will be passed for the present. Mr. BALLINGER. On page 14, line 15, after the word “final” change the semicolon to a comma, and reinstate the matter stricken out in lines 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19. Mr. KELLY. After the word “fund,” is it not, instead of “final” 2 Mr. BALLINGER. Yes. Mr. ELSTON. That involves this same Red Lake proposition.