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nize that the Red Lake Reservation belongs exclusively to the Red Lake Indians.

Mr. RHODES. Then the act of 1904 does not relate to the question of allotments ?

Mr. MERITT. I will read the language contained in the act of 1904.

Mr. RHODES. What I am getting at is that it is not an abrogation or repeal of the former act ?

Mr. MERITT. It does not.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I will say for the benefit of Mr. Graves that we have consumed a good part of his time on something that is entirely foreign to what he probably wants to say to us.

Mr. MERITT. The act of 1904 contains this provision: ARTICLE 4. It is further agreed that the said Indians belonging on the said Red Lake Indian Reservation in Minnesota, shall possess their diminished reservation independently of all other bands of the Chippewa Tribe of Indians, and shall be entitled to allotments thereon of 160 acres each of either agricultural or pine lands, the different classes of land to be apportioned as equitably as possible among the allottees.

The CHAIRMAN. The principal thing that this act did was to authorize the allotment of 160 acres instead of 80 acres.

Mr. MERITT. And also it recognizes specifically that the Red Lake Reservation belongs exclusively to the Red Lake Indians.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. It would seem at this time to be diametrically opposed to the legislation of 1889.

Mr. MERITT. Not diametrically opposed, when we take into consideration what was said to the Red Lake Indians by the commissioners in 1889.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. I am speaking of the language of the law, though. Now, Mr. Graves, you can proceed if you can get the o tunity.

Mr. GRAVES. As soon as practicable would be interpreted by the Red Lake Indians to be when they are willing to accept allotments. And I do not wish to convey the belief to the committee that the Red Lake Indians are not going to take allotments; they are going to take them some day. There is no question about that, but you leave them alone; they are going on the promises of the commission as I have stated. The law can be interpreted differently altogether, but that same law was interpreted to them and they sent the commission away and told them they didn't want anything to do with that. When the poor, old ignorant Indian, the defenseless Indian, was promised that what little reservation he would reserve after ceding all of his lands, he would not be molested in, but when he was ready he could take allotments, and if the Government wants to be honest with those Indians they must certainly—they ought to wait until those Indians wish for allotments.

I took this matter up for the Red Lake Indians, but I know I can't do them justice, because I am not an orator or anything of that kind. I can't do them justice. As I said, I don't go to the Congressmen because I am backward. I don't like to go and tell the Congressman, and he may think that I am stuffing him with something that is not true, just like he has been stuffed right along.

Mr. KELLY. This committee has only one purpose, Mr. Graves, and that is to do justice. We want to get the facts.

Mr. GRAVES. Then you want to do justice to the Red Lake Indians.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we are listening to you to see if we can be convinced that you have not had justice up to this time.

Mr. GRAVES. Now in that bill, of course, anything that pertains to the Red Lake Indians wants to be stricken out of the bill, and the Red Lake Indians will be satisfied with no other. We don't want a townsite on Red Lake. They will agree to anything like that when they want a town site whenever there is one necessary. There is a town there called Red Lake, and if anybody wants to go to the town he can go there. It is only 5 miles from the agency. But that the town site is not the wish of the Red Lake Indians; it is the wish of the White Earth Indians that are traders there, and they run the politics there at Red Lake—that is, they attempt to do so. I don't know how they are going to pan out after this. They were good friends of mine one day, but as soon as I saw the advantage they wanted to take was for their own interest, I departed, and I promised those Red Lake Indians that I would see that they got justice if they could ever get justice as to what they are entitled to as conveyed to them by the commissioner after they had rejected the act of 1889.

The CHAIRMAN. The Red Lake Indians, as I understand your statement here, have no confidence whatever and do not recognize in any way the council which has been recognized by the bureau to operate for the Red Lake Indians in any way.

Is that correct? Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; that is correct. They don't have anything to do with that general council at all.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, as you say, you are a modest man, but I think you are making a very clean statement here and are a friendly representative of the Red Lake Indians, and this is a very complex question regarding all of the Chippewa Indians, and I want to ask you if you, as a representative of the people, believe that the Red Lake Indians as a whole are in sympathy with the administration of their affairs by the bureau and are satisfied, wholly satisfied, with the distribution of money and their activities up there in that community?

Mr. GRAVES. Y es, sir. We would rather have the Government look after our affairs.

The CHAIRMAN. That is not the point. It is not a question of whom you would rather have; I am asking you if you are satisfied and content with the situation as it exists?

Mr. GRAVES. Why, yes; in open council the Red Lake Indian Council has called on the Government to protect them through the Indian Bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. And the Indian Bureau has done that to your entire satisfaction ?

Mr. GRAVES. To our entire satisfaction? Well, of course, you never can be entirely satisfied. That is out of the question.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you state any particular reason why you are not satisfied with the management of affairs by the Indian Bureau as it exists to-day? Now, you say you are not wholly satisfied; tell us something with which you are not satisfied.

Mr. GRAVES. Well, if I state here that I am satisfied, probably somebody else is not.

The CHAIRMAN. You are speaking now for the Red Lake Band ?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; we are satisfied. We want the Indian Bureau to control our affairs until such time as the Red Lake Indian himself would want otherwise. We want the Government to protect the Red

Lake Indian from the same frauds that were committeed at White Earth on the White Earth allotment. If you know the real condition of those White Earth Indians, it would be astonishing to you gentlemen; it would be astonishing to you. We don't know the real conditions there.

Mr. KELLY. I have read that in former hearings of the investigation, and it was very deplorable.

Mr. Graves. When an Indian applies for a fee patent on his land, why does he apply for that fee patent? Does he apply just to have the privilege of paying taxes ? My experience has been altogether different all the time. When an Indian calls for a fee patent he generally wants to sell it and get what money he can out of it every time.

Mr. KELLY. Has the Indian no desire whatever to be considered a free citizen and willing to pay taxes for that privilege, or does he always want to be in the position of a ward with the Indian Bureau forever guiding his destinies?

Mr. GRAVES. If you were an Indian you might be on paper a ward, but you don't have to stay on the reservation. I have got one boy that is working in the steel plant in Duluth. All that Mr. Ballinger was crying about here when he was telling you that these Indians were penned up on the reservation is not so. I can get out here and get a position and I wouldn't have to go back on the reservation, and then, at the same time, I wouldn't lose my rights either.

Mr. KELLY. What is your boy now, for instance? Is he a citizen, declared competent with the rights of American citizenship?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know what he is doing there. He proclaims his job to be a white man or something else, but he is there working just the same as anybody else, and I don't know but what he might be a voter, but he hasn't got any right to vote, but he can pass for a voter just the same if he wants to.

Mr. KELLY. I don't mean to claim, of course, that he is a white man, but I want to know if he is an American citizen with the rights of citizenship; the right to vote and pay taxes.

The CHAIRMAN. Has he been declared a citizen?
Mr. GRAVES. No, he has no allotment. He is unallotted.

Mr. KELLY. Well, I was wanting to know if he would not desire to be a citizen and whether the other Indians on Red Lake do not have any desire at all to be American citizens.

Mr. GRAVES. Well, that is too deep a question for them at that.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, as I understand, your whole argument it is that you, as a representative of the Red Lake Indians, are absolutely opposed to this legislation in any form in so far as it affects in any way the Red Lake Band of Indians ?

Mr. GRAVES. Certainly. If we want segregation and let the 50-year period begin at the time the other Indians-at the time the allotment rolls were closed-say that the allotment closed 31 years ago, then they have got only 19 years yet before that 50-year period is up. But we will be allotted as soon as practicable, and that is when we want the allotments. Then there is plenty of allotments to take care of the Red Lake Indians after their allotments.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me that some one up there has had sense enough, or been able to get somebody who has had sense enough to protect the interests of the Red Lake Indians quite satisfactorily up to the present time.

Mr. MERITT. And the Indian Bureau has been doing it.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, whoever has done it. Now if you have anything further to say, you can proceed.

Mr. GRAVES. Well, i don't know whether I should say anything more or not. I don't like to make any personal attacks more than I can help. When Mr. Elston was chairman, I didn't get any more than into the hallway when Mr. Beaulieu there gave me a tongue lashing, and Mr. Ballinger at the Interior Building just as soon as I met him, and John Arten-they believe I am easily scared, and they wanted to take advantage of me. Of course I had my ideas too. I don't like to get down to that.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you have permission to go ahead.

Mr. HERNANDEZ. The act of 1904 which empowers the Indian Office to sell part of the Red Lake Reservation was never ratified by your tribe, was it?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, the original agreement was ratified by the Indians, but Uncle Joe Cannon was here, the watchdog of the Treasury, and he wouldn't allow the United States to pay for the land, and so it was changed afterwards, and the changes, of course, did not change the thing materially. The Red Lake Indians were very generous. They wanted to cede sections 16 and 36 to the State for school purposes, and they objected to that for a wonder, and they wouldn't have anything to do with Maj. McLaughlin after that. They had already made a treaty with them, so that by this act of 1904 the Red Lake Indians got something like $200,000 more than they first bargained. So there was do damage done there.

The CHAIRMAN. To the Red Lake Indians ?
Mr. GRAVES. To the Red Lake Indians.

Mr. HENDERSON. Mr. Chairman, before the witness takes his seat, may I ask the chairman to get into the record, if he will, a statement from this witness as to the comparative status of the Red Lake Indians and the status of the Indians on the other reservations in the State of Minnesota where allotments have been made.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard what Mr. Henderson said, and you can make any statement in regard to it that you desire.

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I think the Red Lake Indians of course they have received considerable money from the act of_1904, much more than some of the other Indians, while the other Indians have been enjoying those fine lands-and they are allotted on fine lands--and some of them got as high as $13,000 and up to $20,000. Some of them did not get anything, of course, and by that they have been getting along first rate, but that doesn't help them to civilization, as was the intent of that act of 1889. That would not get them anywhere. They just know how to spend money when they get it.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand Mr. Henderson wants to have you state whether or not you thought the status of the Red Lake Indians was of a higher grade than that of the Indians that have already been allotted.

Mr. GRAVES. The Government has built houses for them out of the proceeds of the timber sales off of their allotments—that is those allotted Indians. The Government would sell the pine on their allotment and then they tried to get them to use that money for some good purpose and some of them did build houses and buy implements. A very few of them did that. They would rather

use it for some other purpose, and then if the department didn't let them use it for that purpose, the department would hold those funds against the law, or something like that, and of course the department's good intention has been run down by this kind of people. They misconstrue the idea or the intention of the department. That is the way I see it.

What is in the mind of the Red Lake Indians is that they want to be property holders. They don't want to be landless like the landless Indians. They want them held until they are far enough advanced to take allotments, so they can hold them for the full value if they want to sell them. They will know the value, and they will want their allotment then.

Mr. KELLY. They are not as far advanced now, then, as the White Earth Indians ?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't think so. They claim they are not in condition to take their allotments now.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that what you wanted to bring out, Mr. Henderson?

Mr. HENDERSON. Hardly, Mr. Chairman. What I wanted to know from the witness, if I could find out, was with reference to the general welfare of the people as a community and as a class, whether they live as happily and as comfortably as the Indians on the reservations where allotments have been made.

Mr. GRAVES. Of course, I think the Red Lake Indians live more happily than the others.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what he wants to bring out.

Mr. GRAVES. Under better conditions. They don't have to be confined, nor do they have to live on somebody else's land like the others do.

The CHAIRMAN. You would not want to say that a band of Indians that have not been allotted and have not come into the possession of their own land are in a more mature state looking toward citizenship than bands of Indians that have been allotted and have gone onto their own resources ?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't understand the question. I don't get you, Mr. Snyder.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I will try to put it this way: Of course, a great number of the Chippewa Indians have been allotted in other parts of Minnesota, and on the Red Lake none have been allotted. Now do you mean to say that the Red Lake Indians are in a higher state of civilization than those in the other sections of the Chippewa where they have become competent and have been allotted ?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't claim that they are in a higher state of civilization. I don't claim that, but they do know they are civilized enough to know that they ought to be property holders.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but the whole theory of the Indian Service is to bring the Indian nearer to the state of civilization in his own right and make him a citizen. That is what we are all striving to do. Mr. GRAVES. They have made wonderful progress.

The CHAIRMAN. It is certain that unless there is some good reason-and perhaps you stated the good reason—that the Red Lake Indians should not be assisted or helped in their efforts toward final citizenship, and I don't think that your band up there probably are wholly right in holding on to the tribal relation as hard as

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