Indians for same. That was done to obtain what was called extinguishment of the Indian title to the tract of land negotiated for. This for the reason that under our policy of treating with the Indians, the Government could not give a patent with clear title to that portion of land to any person without such an agreement with the Indians to extinguish the Indian title; otherwise there would be a cloud on the title. Therefore I said, and I want you to understand, that all the territory in the United States is the property of the United States. The land in the Indian reservations, the military reservations, and all Government reservations are properties of the United States in a certain sense.

The Indian reservations are reserved for the Indians to occupy—that is, it is their land so long as they live, and so long as their children live after them-but they can not dispose of it. It is simply the right of occupancy. But, as I told you the other day, and as you will understand, the demand for land is increasing in this country. As the population increases lands become scarcer, and the more land is required. And when I say the Government in this respect, I mean the people; all the people of the United States are the Government. They elect members to represent them in Congress, and those members make the laws and represent the people, who are a part of the Government, and the demand of the people of the country is so great for more land that the representatives in Congress are obliged to listen to them. And, remember, as I told you the other day, that Congress enacts the laws and the President and the heads of departments execute them, but they can not do any more than execute the laws that are enacted by Congress. Now, I hope that I have made this question of Indian title to land understood by you.

I will say that the statements that you have made here to-day in conjunction with those that you made yesterday please me very much. They have been stated in very plain manner. As I stated to you yesterday, I fully believe that there is merit in many of your claims that you have presented, and I promise you, as I did yesterday that they will be forwarded by me and submitted to the Department with strong recommendations for action as promptly as possible.

I will say, my friends, in regard to the matter of the boundary lines as described by you, the boundary lines are fully defined by the treaties, and whatever they are in the treaties, are the only lines that will be considered. But I will present your claims just as you have submitted them to me, and I will report strongly upon them when I reach Washington, and will follow them up and have you notified regarding them. That is all I can do regarding the claims that you have presented.

Now, my friends, to return to the chief object of my visit here, which is the cession of the western portion of your reservation, I will speak to you very plainly. You have been living under the act of 1889 for over ten years past and you know how unsatisfactory it has been to you. And it is the only legislation now existing by which you are governed in regard to your land matters. Now, do you wish to continue under this act, or do you desire to be relieved from it by entering into a new agreement with me for the cession of this western portion of your reservation. This is of such great importance to you that you should be very particular in rendering your decision. You Red Lake Chippewas have always been a law-abiding people and have a very good name throughout the country, in consequence of which you have the sympathly of the Department officials; one and all regret your status under the present act.

There is just one of two things for you people to decide, the outcome of which will be with yourselves. Now, remember my friends, I am speaking to you from my heart as a friend. It is simply the truth, and I want you to take it as coming from a friend and one that has the welfare of the Chippewa Indians at heart. If you allow things to go on as they are, within a very short time an order will be issued for you people to take allotments. You will then have an opportunity to select allotments, and if you do not take them they will be allotted to you, and what lands remain after your allotments have been made will be opened to settlement under the act of 1889, for which you will receive $1.25 per acre for your agricultural land, and should there be any pine lands you will receive for them the price provided by that act. As soon as that is accomplished the white men will flock into the country as thick as mosquitoes, and if you are prepared to meet that condition well and good. I am simply telling you what the outcome will be.

I am now going to make you an offer for your land. No person was authorized to speak for me as to the price I was going to offer you for this tract of land. No one knew my mind regarding it. Before making my offer I want to explain the price of land the different classes of land. There is what is called a minimum price and a double minimum price. The min imum price is $1.25 per acre, and that is for land that is outside of railroad limits. The double minimum price is $2.50 per acre, and that is for land that is within railroad limits. That is the Government

price for land-what the Government charges the white man who files upon such lands and if secured under the homestead law, which requires five years' residence and certain improvements, they are free to the homesteader.

Now, my friends, the offer that I am going to make you is the largest offer that i ever made Indians for any lands, and I have made every agreement in the past six years with the Indians of the United States, except two. Remember, the lands that I am going to make you an offer for do not contain any pine timber; they are essentially agricultural lands. Those lands, if owned out and out by the Government-that is, with full title in the Government-they would be sold for $1.25 per acre to actual settlers. Now, I am going to offer you three times that much. I am going to offer you $3.75 per acre, which means that you will receive $960,670 for that tract, of which amount $260,670 will be a cash per capita payment within ninety days after the agreement is ratified by Congress, and $70,000 a year for ten years thereafter. There are 1,332 Indians now belonging on your reservation, but, calculating that births will increase that number to 1,340, it would be $195 for each man, woman, and child for the first payment. A family of five persons would thus receive $975 for the first payment, and the ten annual payments of $70,000 each would give every man, woman, and child a little over $52 each year for ten years.

My friends, when I left Washington, it was generally believed that I could procure those lands for about $2.50 per acre, but I came through the tract and observed it closely, and have also made inquiry regarding the value of land in that section of country, and I have concluded to make you a good liberal offer in the beginning rather than to start at a low price and come up to that amount. That tract of land is not all good, but it is good average land and I regard it worth $3.75 per acre, taken as a whole. I make this offer so that the Government is on record as having made you a very liberal offer for that tract of land, and I hope that you will see the wisdom of accepting it. If you reject this liberal offer with the payment all in cash, in eleven installments, which period of annual payments are believed to be best for you, you certainly will regret it.

If you would rather take you chances and receive only $1.25 per acre for your surplus lands, such as the act of 1889 will give you, than to accept the $3.75 per acre which I offer you, well and good; it is for you to determine.

My friends, when I was leaving Washington, just a few minutes before I started, I had a talk with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs in relation to this matter, and he told me to be liberal in the price allowed you for the land, and that he would approve it; that he was desirous of seeing you people of Red Lake Agency protected in every way possible. And he told me that I might have the agreement provide that you receive double the amount of land for allotments that you are entitled to under the present act. This is something which is well for you to consider. Under the present act it is doubtful whether you are entitled to allotments of pine lands; the rulings have been against it up to the present time, but I can provide for such in any agreement we may conclude. I am, however, not going to press the question of allotments upon you. I leave that entirely with yourselves, but I advise you to have an article incorporated in the agreement providing for the allotments of 160 acres each within your diminished reservation, as it will exist if we conclude an agreement. With this offer that I make you for the land that we are negotiating for, $960,670 in cash, I can provide for 160 acres each for your allotments within the reduced reservation if you so desire, and have the allotments either timber or agricultural land, it matters not which; it will be made to apply to either. However, if you do not want the matter of allotments touched upon, that can remain just as it is, but then you are only entitled under the law as it now stands to 80 acres each, and I can make provision giving each man, woman, and child 160 acres. And as I told you in our first council, I can provide for compensating those of you who now reside on that western tract, paying you for the improvement you have if you elect to come within the diminished reservation. You may remain where you are if you desire, but in the latter event you would have to take allotments there at once in order to hold your claims.

Now, my friends, I am here to try and have you understand this matter fully; it is the desire of the Department to protect you people. The cession of that piece of land under the agreement that I can prepare will provide for your protection upon the reduced reservation and will leave you people entirely independent of all other Chippewa Indians so far as your reservation is concerned and so far as this money is concerned, and at the same time you retain your share of the proceeds of the ceded land—that is, the lands ceded by the agreement of 1889. Now, it is for you to decide whether you want this protection that I offer you or take your chances under the act of January 14, 1889, whereby the proceeds of your surplus lands, after your allotments are made, will go into the common fund of the Chippewas of Minnesota, and

each receive a proportionate share, but my offer secures the proceeds of this cession to you Indians of Red Lake Reservation alone.

It is to the interest of the Indians of the other Chippewa agencies of Minnesota to have you reject this proposition so that these lands may be opened under the act of 1889, that they may thus share in the proceeds, and the selfishness of some of those people has been such as to try and prevent and discourage you in accepting any proposition or entering into an agreement for any of your lands.

I wish, my friends, that I could understand and speak the Chippewa Indian language as well as my friend the interpreter here. If I could I would remain with you here this evening in your councils and am confident that I could convince you of the wisdom of your accepting this proposition. The white people demand the land and the Department officials desire to help you and allow you the best condition possible, which is evidenced by what I have offered you. I am on record, and therefore the Department is on record, in the offer that I have made you of $3.75 per acre, a very liberal offer; the highest offer I ever made for land. I never gave more than $2.50 per acre for Indian reservation lands in any agreement that I have made, the most of them being for a great deal less.

Now, bear in mind when you are considering this that the offer that I have made you is a very liberal one. This offer will go before the Department and go before Congress, and they will see that it has been made to you; and I hope that you will not reject it. If it is accepted by you it may be a difficult matter to have it ratified, but I feel reasonably sure that it will meet the approval of the Secretary of the Interior and Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and also the committees of Congressthat is, the Senate and House Indian Committees. Now, my friends, I have given you something to consider. I have made you an offer. There is not a man in this room, looking into your faces, but I can see has sufficient intelligence, and interest in his own welfare and the welfare of his people and those of the rising generation, but desires to do what is for the best interests of all. And if you think it is for your best interest and the interests of your children and grandchildren and those coming after you to let the agreement of 1889 continue to govern your affairs, well and good; but if you think that this proposition that I have made you is best, then accept my offer.

In considering this offer remember very particularly that your agreement of 1889 gives you only $1.25 per acre for all the agricultural land, and that the proceeds of the sale of your reservation within the boundary lines, all over what you require for allotments, will be divided among the whole of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota. On the other hand my offer protects you in your reservation and gives you 160 acres of land each, in case you consent to take allotments, and gives you $960,670 for you people of the Red Lake Reservation alone, which the other Chippewas have no interest whatever in.

My friends, I have endeavored to place this matter before you in its proper and true light. Every statement that I have made you here since our councils began has been absolutely true, and I defy any person to controvert any one of them. I hope you will see the advantage to yourselves and to your children, and those coming after you, to accept the proposition. If you reject it I feel that I have done my duty, and no blame can rest upon me or with the Government, whose representative I am in these negotiations.

As I said in my first council, and my friend Kay gay gah bow oince said the same yesterday, we meet as friends, and if we do not conclude an agreement we will part as friends.

You now have my proposition; it is for you to consider. The question is before you and I will be ready to hear your answer at any time. It is a matter that you should deliberate upon with great care; you should look at it from all sides before you come to a conclusion. While I am ready for your answer at any time, I would prefer that you take to-night to think it over. Discuss it among yourselves and give me your answer to-morrow. We will now adjourn until you send for me. I will be ready to meet you at any time you send for me. I would suggest that we place the hour of meeting to-morrow at the same time we met to-day. In the meantime consider my proposition and what I have said to you very carefully, and any time, be it to-night or early to-morrow morning, if you want to ask any question send for me and I will come.

I will not detain you much longer, and if you are short of provisions while you remain here in our negotiations call upon Mr. Graves, who will provide for your needs.

Meeting adjourned at 4.30 p. m.

Council reconvened Saturday, March 8, 2 p. m.

GAY BAY NO DIN. We would like one and all of the Red Lake Indians to understand what you have said in regard to these negotiations. One of our main spokesmen, who has been sick and not been in our councils heretofore, is here now and he wants to hear all that you have said to us and to speak to you and ask you a few questions.

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. It would be better for me to turn the typewritten minutes of our councils over to you and have the three interpreters remain here with you and explain each day's session. I will, however, state here for the benefit of those who have not been at all of our councils what my offer is. The tract of land that will be included in the cession, if we conclude an agreement, contains 256,152.28 acres. My offer is a definite lump sum-$960,670-based upon the number of acres included in the cession calculated at $3.75 per acre, and my suggestion was that the money be paid you in eleven payments, the first payment to be within ninety days after the agreement is ratified by Congress and the remainder in ten annual payments thereafter.

I stated that $260,670 would be paid you in the first payment, and that it would leave $700,000 to be divided into ten annual payments of $70,000 each year for ten years. There are, according to the rolls of your agency, 1,332 Indians, men, women, and children, belonging on your reservation at the present time, and calculating upon eight additional for children that may be born, would make 1,340 persons, and for 1,340 persons it would be about $195 for each man, woman, and child on the reservation for the first payment. The $70,000 a year for ten years, divided among the same number of people, would give a little over $52 per capita, it would be about $52.20 a year for each man, woman, and child, each year, for ten years. Now, remember, I do not force this manner of payment upon you. That is for you to determine, if you would rather these payments to continue for fifteen or twenty years and have smaller payments each year, well and good. I only suggest this. It is for you to decide how you want it. If the chief who has been ill and unable to be present at our councils heretofore wishes to hear everything that has been said, I think the better way is as I have suggested. That is, take the minutes of our councils, which you people have a duplicate of, and have them read and explained by the three interpreters.

The matter is plainly presented there, and answers to all the questions propounded are given. I have the original of all our proceedings, which will be forwarded to the Department with my report and is in every particular the same as the copy you have. I have one copy for transmittal to the Department, and the other copy I turn over to you for reference. Now, it is for you to say whether you wish to have the interpreters explain them to you or not. I think it would be very well if you can take the time to do so. I will give you all the time that you need, because any agreement that we may enter into I wish you to understand fully and distinctly.

KAY GAY GAH BOW OINCE. My friend, it is very nice the way you have talked; it is a very good thing that everything that is said between us we are to distinctly understand, and to ask questions about the value of what you come to see us for. It is a very important matter what you come to see us about, and I am thinking over it very deeply. There is one question I want to ask you, and that is, Who was it that sent you here to see us?

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. The Secretary of the Interior, who is my direct superior. He represents the President of the United States in Indian matters.

KAY GAY GAH BOW OINCE. He gave you full authority?

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Yes; full authority to negotiate an agreement with you people for the tract of land we have been talking about.

KAY GAY GAH BOW OINCE. Is there any authority given me that a proposition I make should be accepted?

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. That is what I am here to see you for, to discuss the matter with you. I have made you a proposition; you may make me a proposition. There are two parties to this trade; I represent the Government, who is one party; you Red Lake Indians are the other party.

KAY GAY GAH BOW OINCE. Well, my friend, the reason I ask you this, I have a good deal to say-lots of questions to ask. Are you positive that the proposition that I will ake you will be accepted?

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I can tell better after I hear it. I couldn't tell until after I know what it is.

KAY GAY GAH BOW OINCE. I have sent two delegations to Washington. I sent them there to look after our matters. Our delegations to Washington came back here empty handed, scarcely anything to tell. This is what I want to understand. Maybe I have been doing wrong. My friend, there is another thing, I want to see

your written authority. I have never taken the pains to do as I am doing now when anybody has been sent here from Washington to see me. My friend, that is the reason that I have said that we must distinctly understand each other. Well, my friend, we now wish to see your authority to negotiate with us for our land, and these Indians will think it over.

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I cheerfully comply with your request. Here is my letter of instructions, which I will have read and explained to you by the interpreters. (Interpreters Graves and Roy read and explain inspector's instructions to the Indians.)

KAY GAY GAH BOW OINCE. I am very glad.

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. You see, my friends, that I want to have everything honest and straightforward, and I wish to say to you, as you may understand from the wording of my instructions which have been read to you, that large discretionary power is vested in me in these negotiations. I am simply directed therein to be fair to the Indians and just to the United States. The meaning of the words "fair to the Indians" is to give you a fair and reasonable price for your land and provide for manner of payments which will be the most conducive to your welfare. The meaning of the words "just to the United States" is, not to pay more than the land is worth and to have the agreement such as will meet the approval of Congress. The word "justice" also means protecting you in your just rights. As I told you heretofore, the people of the United States constitute the Government and you are part of the people of the United States.

Now you have the matter before you, my friends, and you certainly must understand it, because I have taken great pains to make it very clear to you. The lump sum, $960,670, is based upon the number of acres included in the cession, at the rate of $3.75 per acre. That makes the definite lump sum stated.

I have already said that any of you now located on that tract who desire to remain there may do so, and the price of the number of acres required for allotments for those electing to remain will be deducted from the lump sum offered. It would make that lump sum proportionately less. As a friend of the Indians, and having your best interests at heart, I would advise all to come within the reduced reservation. You can only protect yourselves on the ceded tract by taking allotments, and if you remain on that portion you must take your allotments at once. You then become full-fledged white men in every sense of the word, and you will have white men all around you. The only advantage that you will have over the white man is that your allotments will not be taxed for twenty-five years, during the trust period. Now, my friends, you should understand the whole matter very clearly from the way I have explained it. If you have anything to say to me I will remain in council; if not, and you wish to consider this matter further, I will now leave the roomand will return any time you desire to ask me any questions.

KAY BAY GAH BOW. Well, these men have listened to you; all that I called for from you. They will take the matter under consideration and have a talk among themselves this afternoon. There is something more that I want to tell you. The sum of money that you have been naming now; such promises as that is what I have been given in the past, naming great big sums of money to me. It is a shame the way I have been treated; for any man to come here and name big sums of money to me. I am glad that you are an Indian inspector. The money due us that we make complaints about, you must know why I don't get it. That is all I want to say in regard to these sums of money that you have been talking about.

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I want to reply to my friend's remarks; they are very good. The sum of money that I offer is not based upon anything that is contingent, nor upon the appraisement of lands, nor upon the classification of lands, or anything of that kind. It is simply a trade. That is, you are giving so much land, for which the Government is giving you a definite amount of money at certain times. It is a straight business transaction with two parties to the trade. Men have not to be sent over there to see how many acres of land there are, or how many acres are good agricultural land, or how many acres are poor land, whether any of it is marshy, or how many acres of swamps there are. We simply buy the land for so much money, the poor with the good.

In considering this matter in regard to the cession of that piece of land and with reference to those who live on that tract of land, any of you who want to remain there, your names and the number of persons in your families should be given me so that I may calculate accordingly. If you remain there you have to take allotments, and your allotments will not be taxed for twenty-five years, but your personal property will be taxed. Within the reduced reservation it is different. Any of you located on the tract covered by the proposed cession who come in upon the reservation will be paid for what improvements you leave there-houses, fences, and any