I now want to state one of the main matters that has blocked me. In dividing my property in four quarters the Government took away one-quarter of my property. All these Indians are of the same mind. We don't mean to be contrary. When I was in Washington year before last I called upon Senator Nelson and asked him who authorized the opening for settlement of some of my land, and told him that as he was there all the time he must know who authorized the opening of some of the lands and whether it was himself or the Government. He would not give me an answer. He simply walked out of the office without his hat. I am looking for an answer from the Department. We presented our grievances at Washington, and that is what I am looking for. This what I have said is the wish of all the Indians that are here. The Indians wish to make no agreement whatever until our matters are adjusted. When I was in Washington the Commissioner of Indian Affairs promised me $27,000, but I have not got the $27,000 yet. What is the matter that I do not get this $27,000 that was promised me? Something more I want to say. When Hon. H. M. Rice came here and negotiated a treaty with us he promised us that we would get $80 per capita of interest money from that treaty, the stipulation of the treaty he was making, and that for fifty years we would not have to take any allotments of land, and all these Indians that are here hold to that understanding. They don't want to take allotments. I reserved a piece of land; I reserved it for coming generations. This is all I want to say to you. In my talk we are just like one man, in that we are all of the same mind in these matters.

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I want to ask you in relation to that $27,000 that you say the Commissioner promised. What claim did that $27,000 represent?

MAYS KO KO NAY AY. We went to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, a different delegation from the other delegations, and we were told by him that we were to have $27,000 for stumpage due us.

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Now, you people seem to have gotten the matter of allotments somewhat confounded. I am not here to force allotments upon you people, although I know it would be for your own good. It would be well for you to take allotments. Each man would then have his own piece of land, and the improvements that he would place upon it would be his property alone. And while you people under your treaty are only entitled to 80 acres each, I could provide for you, in a new agreement, that you receive double that amount, men, women, and children; that is, in case we come to an agreement for the western portion of your reservation. I advise you to think of that well, for it will enable you to secure the very best land on the reservation, which can not be interfered with by anyone, and it is held in trust for twentyfive years.

Now, in regard to this piece of land that I have been talking to you about, it is a different proposition from any grievance that you are speaking of. I have known for some time past that your people had many grievances in relation to your deadand-down timber, and that the matter is still unsettled, but there is no doubt but that will eventually be attended to and properly adjusted. That was a bill which was prepared in Congress and sent out to you for your ratification, and it is such as to be very difficult to interpret clearly and satisfactorily to the Indians, and at the same time meet with the requirements of the Treasury Department. Indians are naturally impatient and want all matters attended to too hurriedly, but you must bear in mind that this is a great country with an immense number of people to legislate for and a great many matters to be attended to, and it takes time to bring all things about. This is especially so with an agreement containing ambiguous expressions, that is, expressions that are difficult to understand where the same word may have two or more different meanings. The advantage in having simple, plain words in an agreement is therefore very great.

Now, any agreement that we may make for this tract of land, if we conclude an agreement, will be simple and plain and easily understood, and as there is only you people interested instead of all the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota, as in your last agreement, there would be no possibility of a misunderstanding in its interpretation or in carrying out its provisions. The difference in that treaty which Governor Rice presented here and my proposition is that his was enacted by Congress and sent here for your ratification without your having any say in its preparation, while you are a party to the agreement in my proposition. The agreement will be made on such terms as we shall agree upon, I representing the Government and you the Red Lake Chippewas. There is an old saying used by the whites that it requires two parties to make a bargain, and in justice to those interested both parties should have a voice in making the trade, and the Department, desiring to allow you people to have a say in this proposed agreement, has sent me here to talk with you and try and bargain with you for this piece of land. There are no people who cheerfully accept a bargain forced upon them against their will-something they have no voice inand for that reason I have been sent here to present this matter and to consider it

with you and to talk it over until we arrive at an agreement, and I will reason with you and give you a fair and plain answer to all your questions.

I will say further that my negotiations with you people is for that piece of land, and I can not include any past grievances which you may have, but I would like to have you state fully and clearly what your grievances are and state the grounds upon which you base the same, and they will all appear in the minutes of our councils and will become a part of the printed document, if an agreement is entered into between us. While I can only guarantee and pledge my word for the truth of every statement that I will make regarding the negotiations that we are engaged upon for the western portion of your reservation, I promise to faithfully submit your grievances in my report. As for any agreement that we may enter into I know that it will be carried out to the letter, and as for the grievances that you speak of, I can only promise that I will do all that I can in presenting them properly, and if there is merit in them I have no doubt but that they will be adjusted in due time. Any agreement that we may enter into in regard to this tract of land will not in any way conflict with your claims; those claims will have the same status with the Department and with the Government no matter what the outcome of our negotiations in this matter may be; each stands on its own basis, and anything that there is right in, which, from what I have learned and heard, you may have in some of your claims, there is no doubt but that they will be adjusted in due time. On account of ambiguous wording in some agreements with Indians they puzzle the Department and are very difficult to explain.

Now, in considering this question in regard to the western portion of your reservation for its cession to the United States, we want to separate your other claims from that. Consider the one question at a time. Any agreement that we may enter into for these lands of the west portion of your reservation will in no way affect the claims that you speak of. Each of those individual claims will be considered and determined upon its own merits, and any agreement that we may enter into will contain a provision to that effect, which would be in words something after the form that I repeat: "That nothing in this agreement shall be construed to deprive the Indians of any benefits to which they are entitled under existing treaties or agreements."

You people are land poor. What I mean by that, you have a great deal more land than you have any use for, and you are also poor otherwise; you have very little home comforts. I am prepared to give you a good price for this land and pay it all in cash, not all at one time, as I don't think it would be to your best interest to pay it all at one time. I would have the agreement provide to pay you one large first payment, which first payment to be made within ninety days after the agreement would be ratified by Congress, and the remainder of the amount to be paid in ten annual installments, every man, woman, and child to receive equal shares. Upon reservations where they have good grazing lands I always prevail upon the Indians to take some stock, so that they may start in stock raising, but here you have not got the range for cattle that they have west of the Missouri River, and, therefore, cash is better for you.

I have not expected that we would come to an agreement right away, and I am not in the least disappointed at the talk of my friend here who speaks for you people, for the reason that I knew you had many things which you wish to present, and I am ready to hear about those claims and grievances that you wish to have placed before the Great Father's council. It would be something unusual, something away beyond the ordinary, for us to meet and separate the same day, that we would conclude an agreement at once, or that you would decline to entertain a proposition.

You people have been very good in coming here. This has been quite a representative gathering, and I hope that you will consider this matter fully and deliberate upon it for some time. The fact that you have sent for me to-night and given me your answer without asking any questions convinces me that you have not given this matter full consideration.

As I stated to you this afternoon, in my first talk, we met here as friends and we will discuss matters in a friendly spirit, and I hope we can agree; if we can not agree we will part as friends, so that should we ever meet again it will be as friends. That is the wish I have. I am speaking to you as a representative of the Government in this matter, and have very friendly interest in your welfare. So has the President of the United States, the Secretary of the Interior, and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. They have your welfare at heart, but they are powerless to do all things. Congress makes the laws and the heads of the Departments execute them. The Secretary of the Interior, whose eyes, ears, and tongue I am in the Indian work that I am engaged upon, desires the cession by you of this tract of land, believing that it is for your best interests. The Secretary has sent me here to see you with my eyes and hear what you have to say with my ears, and tell you with my tongue the things

that we think are best for you, and I am convinced that it is best for you to dispose of that western portion of your reservation.

I have the gratification of having my reports almost invariably accepted by the Department, and whatever I represent or report to the Department the Secretary usually approves; and in the committees of Congress any representation that I make in regard to Indians on any particular matter that I have been a party to my statements are invariably taken without question. That is what I meant to-day when I said to you that I am in position to give you a good bargain, because I feel that I can give you a better price and more favorable conditions of payment than any other person could, with a reasonable certainty of approval and concurrence by Congress. Therefore, my friends, I don't want you to close your ears and say you won't listen to any proposition for that tract of land. I want to hear the objections you have to. this proposition. Your principal objections are past grievances, alleging that past promises have not been fulfilled. This cession, as I have told you, will in no way affect your old claims, but will strengthen them, for the reason that everything I say to you and everything you say to me here is being taken down by the stenographer and will become a part of the proceedings of our councils and of my report, and of the printed document if an agreement is concluded.

The 256,152 acres of your reservation which you do not need will amount to a large sum of money. and, as I said before, I am prepared to provide that the payment shall be in cash. It is a portion of your reservation that you have no use for. You don't need it; you have ample land without it; more than enough for you in the portion that will be reserved. You are deriving no revenue from the tract referred to. It is bringing you no returns, no benefits whatever, only a few of your people are living there and they are not prospering very well. The sale of that piece of land would provide for you old people in your declining years, and, as I said this afternoon, it would enable you young men to get a good start in life. I don't come here with a bill that has been enacted in Congress without your being consulted as a party to it or your voice being heard when it was prepared, but I come here to try and agree with you upon the price of the land and the manner of payment, so that you are a party to the trade.

My friends, I am very much pleased that you have sent for me this evening, that we might have another talk over it, and that I have been able to explain some matters that didn't occur to me this afternoon. You have been very patient in remaining here all this afternoon in this close room. and listening patiently to everything that I had to say, and as it is getting pretty late I feel that we ought to adjourn for this evening and meet again to-morrow morning. In the meantime you people can talk over this proposed cession and be prepared to-morrow to state the grievances that are uppermost in your minds so that it may appear in the minutes of our councils. And even if we make no agreement your statements will appear in my report and be submitted by me to the Department. The longer that I am with you the more I am learning of your business matters and of promises that have been made to you in the past which you say remain unfulfilled. I don't wish to press you, I don't wish to hurry you, neither do I wish you to hurry me, I desire ample time to explain matters fully so that you may understand me clearly. But I do wish you to remain here to-night so that you may discuss among yourselves the matters you wish to submit to me to-morrow. I mean the grievances you have been referring to. Will you do so?

ANSWER. Yes; we will be here.

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I thank you very much for your attention and the patience you have had, and to-morrow I will listen to you patiently, and I hope that you will consider what we have been talking about to-night. After thinking the matter over myself I might have something more to say to you to-morrow. If you have nothing further to say to-night we will adjourn until to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock.

I wish to say in case you run short of provisions at any time, notify Mr. Graves, who will see that you receive what you need. I was advised by the Indian Commissioner that you would be subsisted while we were in council. In case the supplies. should run short here at the agency, Mr. Sullivan, who I think will return to-morrow night, will doubtless be able to purchase provisions outside.

If you have nothing further to say we will now adjourn until to-morrow morning. Meeting adjourned at 10 p. m.

Council reconvened March 6, 1902, 2 p. m.

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. My friends, you have notified me that you are ready to meet me. We have assembled in council and I am ready to hear what you may have to say. KOI BAY NO GIN. We have assembled here again to come to an understanding. Now we meet here as friends. As long as we are here together we want to be as

friends, and after our councils are over we want to be friends. Mr. J. C. Roy is the man we have appointed to read the matters that we want to present to you.

J. C. Roy (reading; Peter Graves interpreting). In the treaty that we made in 1863 we ceded about 9,500,000 acres of agricultural land and we also ceded some pine land. The land that was ceded by that treaty we only got about 4 cents an acre for the whole; that is what we have received for it up th the present time; that is what the Indians received from the lands ceded by that treaty. This is one of the grievances in which we think there has been wrong done to us. The understanding we had in that treaty was that the reservation line was to begin at a point on the international boundary line at the Lake of the Woods on the western shore, and from thence to the head of Thief River; thence down the main channel of the said Thief River to its mouth on the Red Lake River; thence from the mouth of the Thief River direct south to the Wild Rice River; thence along the Wild Rice River to its head: thence from the head of the Wild Rice River along a creek which flows in from the east; thence from the source of this creek in a direct line to Portage Lake; thence from the east end of Portage Lake direct to the Mississippi River; thence following the main channel of the Mississippi River to Lake Bemidji; thence direct from the south side of Lake Bemidji, where the Mississippi River runs into Lake Bemidji, in a direct line north from the north end of Lake Bemidji; thence in a direct line north to Little Birch Lake; thence from Little Birch Lake in a direct line to the island in Black Duck Lake; thence from the said island north to the high ridge; thence from the termination of said high ridge in a direct line to the source of Muddy Creek; thence from the source of Muddy Creek in a direct line to the source of Black River; thence along the said Black River down to the Rainy River; thence following the main channel of the Rainy River to the international boundary line, and thence west along the international boundary line to the place of beginning.

That is how all of the old men understood the reservation line when they made the treaty. This was our understanding, and the line was entirely different when made by the whites.

What we want to ask you about is this: Who ceded the 13 townships on the southwest of the reservation, in Polk County, at and around Fosston; who ceded that and who got the benefit for it? Was there any Indian got any benefit for those 13 townships? Who authorized the opening of those 13 townships? Whether the Mississippi Indians got any benefit, or the Red Lake, Pillagers, or any other Indians? I want to state to you all we know of this. We heard it was in three different ways. We understand that these farmers took this land, and then the pine men, and then again the Mississippi Indians.

How did Mr. R. B. Walker get possession of the pine lands along the southern boundary line within the reservation? Who gave authority to cut this pine timber? Who was it that got the benefit of this timber that was cut? And who was it that moved the line from this Little Birch Lake to Turtle Lake, that is called Little Turtle Lake by the whites? For a number of years pine was cut on the northern portion of our reservation by Canadian trespassers. We heard that the United States arrested these trespassers and had them prosecuted for cutting timber along the northern boundary line, and we have never heard if the Government had gotten any money from these trespassers. If the Government has got any money from these trespassers, we claim the money?

For the last twenty years there has been fishing going on along the lake shore inside our reservation in the Lake of the Woods by the whites, and we understand that the State of Minnesota was getting money out of those fisheries inside of our lines. If there is any money derived from those fisheries, we Indians claim it. We were given to understand by the treaty of 1863 that we were to get annuity cash payments for fifteen years and we got cash payments for only fourteen years. These are the grievances occurring out of our treaty of 1863.

Our understanding of the treaty of 1889 was that the diminished reservation line was to begin at the mouth of Thief River where it empties into Red Lake River thence following the old reservation line into Clearwater River; thence following up the Clearwater River to intersect a line commencing at Big Marsh and directly west to the Clearwater River; thence from the Big Marsh in a southeasterly direction to Rush Lake, thence from Rush Lake in an easterly direction to intersect in a direct line a point 1 mile from the most easterly extremity of Lower Red Lake, and from the point 1 mile from the most easterly point of Lower Red Lake in a direct line due north to a point 1 mile south of the south shore of the Upper Red Lake; thence east 1 mile clear around the east end of Upper Red Lake, where it would intersect a line commencing at the Little Creek branching off from Thief River, about 7 miles from the mouth of Thief River.

The understanding of the treaty of 1889 was that we were to derive $1.25 per acre for all the agricultural lands that were ceded to the United States. And we understand that there has not been a dollar paid for these lands yet. And we understand!

that we were to derive $3 per thousand feet for all of the pine that was sold on the ceded reservation, and we understand that there has been over 600,000,000 feet of pine cut from the reservation that we ceded. We find that we haven't derived more than 65 cents per thousand feet for all this timber, calculating at 600,000,000. And there is lots of pine left standing that has not been cut on the lands that we ceded to the United States. And we were given to understand that we had the use of any ceded land that was not occupied by settlers, to be used as our own. And we furthermore reserved the privilege of using that as our hunting grounds as in former years. And we were given to understand that the Secretary of the Interior was to appoint men, good and honest, to estimate the timber upon the land that was ceded to the United States.

Now for an example of their estimating this timber. There was one lumber concern, Shevlin & Carpenter, bought 70,000,000 feet of this timber as estimated by these estimators, and when the lumber concern who bought it contracted to have this timber cut there was 300,000,000 feet contracted for and cut out of the 70,000,000 feet estimated. And there was another man, Bob McGinn, bought 80 acres of pine land that was estimated at 300,000 feet of timber standing on it, and he cut this timber, which scaled 1,100,000 feet, cut off of this land, that the estimators reported as only 300,000 feet. Another man, named Carter, took a homestead of 80 acres which had been classified as agricultural land, and he cut off of one 40 of this 80 acres over 800,000 feet of pine, which was classified as agricultural land.

One of our people, Ke me weum, stopped with the estimating corps at Ten Mile Lake for three days. The day he arrived at their camp it was snowing. He didn't see any of the men go out any farther than they had to go for their own purposes. On the third day, in the morning, one of them went out with him and walked out to about 200 feet from their camp, and when he came to a pine tree he sized the tree up and estimated how much timber there was in it and took out his little book and made notes of the same and walked back to camp. That was the amount of their work for three days that Je me weum was in camp with them. At another time he camped with the estimators at the mouth of Black Duck River, and while he was there in camp with them, an entire week, he didn't see any of them go out to do any work all that time.

Ah je dum stopped with an estimating crew down at Four Legged Lake. In the morning he stopped and waited for the estimating crew to move out to do some work. He stayed in the camp there waiting until 11 o'clock, and he got tired and went away before they got out. They were asleep yet when he left.

The school sections have been unpaid, and over ten years have elapsed since our 1889 agreement, and a part of the pine that was standing on these school sections has been cut off, and nobody seems to know who has cut the timber off. After everything was accepted and ratified in our treaty of 1889, we were promised that we would not be bothered to dispose of any more of our diminished reservation, and we were given to understand that after the expiration of fifty years the money that was derived from the ceded lands was to be paid over to the Chippewas of Min

nesota.

Another thing that was done here since that treaty of 1889, over twelve years ago, one of the leading hired men, Ne guan ah quod, by name, of the Cross Lakers, asked the commissioners that came up to negotiate with the Chippewas for some pine timber lands, 5 miles above the mouth of Little Shotley Brook, and he was granted his request before the council. This we always thought and believed was within our treaty, and we find that they are cutting the timber off of this tract of land this winter.

On the last trip that the Red Lake Indians made to Washington they were told that there was $27,000 accumulated out of stumpage money that kad been cut in years gone by. They were told that this money belonged to them. They said we could have this money any time we asked for it. We have asked for this money twice now since that promise at Washington, and we want this money paid to us now. We want it paid to us equally in cash, every man, woman, and child.

Regarding the depredations committed by the Red Lake Indians and the Turtle Mountain Indians at the mouth of the Red Lake River many years ago, we want the Turtle Mountain Indians to repay one-third of that amount. The Red Lake Indians had to pay all at that time. The Red Lake Indians paid it all and the Turtle Mountain Indians did not pay anything.

Another thing that I want to call your attention to. There has been lots of timber thieves caught stealing timber off of both the ceded and the diminished portions of our reservation, and we have found out that these trespassers have paid for the timber that they have stolen, and what moneys that these trespassers have paid in we claim to be our own money.

Mr. Rice, in negotiating the treaty of 1889, promised the Indians that there would be only two steamboats on the lake and river; one would run between here and