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Mr. MERITT. It was determined by the department and by this commission authorized by Congress.

Mr. CARTER. But the commission was not provided for at the time the Clapp amendment was passed, as I understand it. Now, before that how was the determination of the degree of blood brought in order that a fellow might be entitled to alienate his property, under the Clapp amendment per se?

Mr. MERITT. We did not anticipate that legislation, therefore we did not prepare the roll to conform to that legislation. The Secretary of the Interior, however, had the rolls prepared and we thought we knew who were full bloods and who were mixed bloods.

Mr. CARTER. I will assume that the chairman is a White Earth Chippewa Indian

The CHAIRMAN. I have been called all kinds of Indians, but never a Chippewa before.

Mr. CARTER. But we will assume that he is, and that he makes a transfer of his allotment. Was there any procedure whatever necessary to validate that transfer? If he were a mixed blood, there would be no procedure necessary except that he would simply execute a deed. How would it be determined that he was a mixed blood?

Mr. MERITT. The department had to take the testimony of different people.

Mr. CARTER. The Secretary of the Interior did that, and not the courts?

Mr. MERITT. I know the courts had jurisdiction if he was a mixed blood, but if a full blood the Secretary of the Interior had jurisdiction. Under the Clapp act the courts held that any Indian possessing any degree of white blood was a mixed blood.

Mr. HASTINGS. That was a question of fact.

Mr. MERITT. It was a question of fact.

Mr. HASTINGS. To be determined in any case,

Mr. MERITT. To be determined in any case.

Mr. HASTINGS. And, as a matter of fact, the purchaser in each one of those cases had to take affidavits to the effect that the fellow was less than full blood, did he not?

Mr. MERITT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HASTINGS. I imagined that is what he did.

Mr. MERITT. And under that amendment a great many full bloods, in order to sell their land, would make affidavits that they were mixed bloods in order to get the money. Now, as to the forest reserve created by the act of 1908 covering Indian lands, I want to state that the Indian Bureau had nothing whatever to do with that legislation. We think that that legislation was unfair to the Chippewa Indians and we very willingly consented to the legislation in the bill that this timber which belongs to the Chippewa Indians shall be sold and that the proceeds shall go to the owners of the timber. I think that Mr. Ballinger will confirm that statement. Now, as to the number of agencies in the Chippewa country. The impression has been given the committee that we have a great many unnecessary agencies among the Chippewa Indians. I want to state, Mr. Chairman, that we have at this time in the Chippewa country, I think, four agencies-one at Red Lake, where there are about 1,500 Indians; one covering the Leech Lake jurisdiction, where there are

about 1,700 Indians; one covering the Fond du Lac jurisdiction and outlaying districts, where there are about 2,000 Indians; and one at White Earth Reservation, where there are about 6,794 Indians.

The CHAIRMAN. Those figures do not quite agree with the figures given by Mr. Ballinger, and his statement that 60 per cent of the 12,000 Indians that you are legislating for up there do not exist any more upon those reservations.

Mr. BALLINGER. That would depend upon where he got the figures. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Meritt mentioned that there are about 12,000 Indians up there in those reservations.

Mr. MERITT. There are about 12,000 Indians, and there are about six or seven thousand of those Indians who are no longer under the jurisdiction of the department.

Mr. BALLINGER. Then those agencies really have charge of only about 6,000 Indians, then?

Mr. MERITT. Those four agencies are supervising the affairs of about 6,000 Indians where restrictions have not been removed, but it should be remembered that these other Indians still have an interest in the Chippewa fund, and it is necessary to pay out money to those Indians, notwithstanding that they have received patents in fee. Now, in order that the record may show that I will ask to have included in my statement a table showing exactly the number of patents in fee that have been issued among the Chippewa Indians on the reservations.

The CHAIRMAN. And will you include in that the period over which that extends, as nearly as you can?

Mr. MERITT. This statement shows patents having been issued from May, 1906, to June 30, 1918.

The CHAIRMAN. It is so ordered.

Mr. MERITT. The statement is as follows:

Patents in fee issued under act of May 8, 1906, as modified by acts of May 29, 1908, and June 25, 1910.

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Mr. MERITT. I might say further that we do not want to retain under our jurisdiction a single Indian who is competent and who is able to handle his own affairs. We would be very glad to get every Indian who is competent out from under the jurisdiction of the Indian

Bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. If this proposed legislation should become a law how many Indians would it leave up there under restriction, how many of the 6,000?

Mr. MERITT. It would probably release between three and four thousand Indians.

The CHAIRMAN. How does your estimate of the time that the affairs of the Chippewas can be wound up in case this legislation shall become effective, agree with Mr. Ballinger's, as to the administration of the bureau, the activities of the bureau, in connection with these Chippewa Indians?

Mr. MERITT. I think that the activities of the Indian Bureau would be reduced at least 50 per cent within the next five years if this legislation that we have proposed shall be enacted by Congress.

Mr. HASTINGS. Has all the land been surveyed, appraised, and graded? I was wondering whether or not these details would have to be completed.

Mr. MERITT. I think some of the land would have to be appraised. I do not think all of it has been appraised.

Mr. HASTINGS. All of it has been surveyed?

Mr. MERITT. All of it has been surveyed. Now, as to the employees in the Indian Service in Minnesota, Mr. Ballinger gave the impression that we had a great many unnecessary employees at these agencies and schools. I want to furnish the committee with a list of the employees now at all of the schools and agencies in the Chippewa country, and I wish the committee would take the time to notice the salaries of those employees, and the small amount of money that is being paid out for this service compared with the amount of money that is being paid for employees now outside of the Government service. I think the average salary of the employees among the Chippewa Indians will be considerably less than $800 a year.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Meritt, I would like to ask you two or three questions of a general character with regard to situations like that. It is claimed by Mr. Ballinger that there is a large number of unnecessary employees; and you claim that the salaries of all the employees are very small. What would you say to the proposition of eliminating 50 per cent of all the employees and increasing the salaries of the reminder of them? What would be the effect of that upon the general situation?

Mr. MERITT. It would be impracticable, Mr. Chairman, from the administrative standpoint.

The CHAIRMAN. Everybody will concede that if those men are doing anything that an average salary of $800 is simply absurd. It is my belief that you could reduce the force 50 per cent, and that much money could be saved by paying the remainder of the employees a sufficient salary that would enable you to get a higher grade of employees, and that the service would thereby be greatly benefited. Mr. DALLINGER. I understand that Mr. Ballinger's contention was that a great many of those employees could be dispensed with. He mentioned several specific instances, one being where there was a

public school that was very much better than the school that was being maintained by the Government, with plenty of room to take care of those pupils. Why, in that instance, could not the pupils be put in the public schools?

Mr. MERITT. In answer to that question I will say that we have been materially reducing the number of students in the Government schools among the Chippewa Indians, and it is our desire that the children be gotten out of the Government schools and into the public schools as quickly as possible. It has been shown in hearings before this committee and before the Senate committee that we get Indian children out of the Government schools and into the public schools wherever practicable.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we have forced that situation about to the limit for the present.

Mr. MERITT. Mr. Chairman, in order that Congress and everybody may have information about the employees among the Chippewa Indians, I would like to have this statement go into the record. The CHAIRMAN. It is so ordered.

Mr. MERITT. The statement follows:

AVERAGE SALARIES IN FOND DU LAC INDIAN SCHOOL, MINNESOTA.

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Average salaries in Leech Lake Indian School, Minnesota, capacity, 90.

[Payable from "Chippewas in Minnesota Fund.”

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1 Payable from "Support of Chippewas of the Mississippi, Minnesota, 1920."
2 Employed from Nov. 1, 1919, to Mar. 31, 1920.

2 200

3,840

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