of the population, the widely scattered localities, and the few teachers are therefore inevitable. That explains why the allotment for the State of Maine is larger than the percentage of children.

The State of Pennsylvania had 8.35 percentage of the total population and only 7.9 of the children. Look over to its allotment. It gets 7.33 percentage of the allotment, which is less than the percentage of children. I will say that here is the explanation in this last column [indicating on chart]. Pennsylvania, with 8.35 per cent of the total population, has only 6.86 per cent of the teachers, and if Pennsylvania wants to get more money out of this $100,000,000 it should take better care of its children and provide them with more teachers. You will find that there is 1 teacher for every 199 in the population of Pennsylvania, while the average for the entire country is 1 to every 163. I wanted you to know this, gentlemen, and I wanted you to study the facts with the terms of this bill as shown on these two exhibits. With these we may know how the Federal law will work out in terms of allotment and know how it will work out with respect to the relative educational needs of the several States.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, we will next hear from Dr. J. A. C. Chandler, the president of William and Mary College, and former superintendent of Richmond, Va., who would like to be heard because he is going away to-night. Let me ask the committee if we shall hear Dr. Chandler here to-night?

Senator KENYON. Yes; I think so.

STATEMENT OF DR. J. A. C. CHANDLER, PRESIDENT OF WILLIAM AND MARY COLLEGE, RICHMOND, VA.

Dr. CHANDLER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I think, if you have not been convinced by the arguments which have been presented to you here, I could say very little, indeed, which would convince you. However, I wish to say just a word from the standpoint of a citizen.

I believe in this bill. I believe in a department of education, first, because I think we want the Nation to be interested in the schools of the Nation. I think that the Nation has shown its interest in all types of activities that work for the good of the country, except the general school system of the country. I think, therefore, we ought to dignify education and put it to the forefront by the establishment of a department of education, as has been done in all the great countries of the world. I hate to think of a delegation from foreign countries coming to America at the invitation of a private society. I would like

Mr. TOWNER. And supported by private societies and educational associations while here. They have to be entertained and taken care of by these private associations in this country.

Dr. CHANDLER. I want the Nation to be in a position to invite commissions here, and I want this Nation to be in a position so it will have international educational relations with these foreign countries. I do not think there is any need to argue about that.

Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I am in favor of Federal aid for all types of education. At the same time, I am bitterly opposed to Federal control. I believe that when you

give to a State one dollar you will get in the long run twenty-five dollars spent for that one dollar. This bill calls for the appropriation of $1 per inhabitant in the United States for the cause of education. Think of it! That is all it calls for. All it calls for is $1 per inhabitant for the cause of education; and we demand of the States, in making use of this money, that they shall pay an equal amount. Ánd right here I would like to suggest an amendment. I would like to suggest that you put at the bottom of page 11 the following, where it says, "And provided, That the sum or sums provided by a State for the equalization of educational opportunities" I would make "provided by a State and local authorities.”

I suggest that for this reason: I want to be sure that no locality could by any slip in this bill reduce its present appropriation to education. Now, if those words "and local authorities" are not in there they will do the same thing that we have had done in the State of Virginia. When the Legislature of Virginia two years ago doubled its appropriation-from $2,000,000 to $4,000,000-for the common schools, we found in certain localities, where the State was supposed to pay 50 per cent for the salaries of teachers, the State actually paid 80 per cent. The locality had reduced its local taxation and produced that effect. If you put those words in there, you will safeguard that so that you will positively compel the local authorities to continue their appropriation.

Senator KENYON. For one, I am very glad that you have suggested that amendment, and it will have consideration.

Dr. CHANDLER. Now, this bill is designed to promote education. That is the great purpose of it. All of this money will not be spent. I am going to illustrate that from the standpoint of Virginia, because that is my State. Virginia has 230,000 illiterates.

Senator KENYON. And what proportion of those illiterates are colored and what per cent are white.

Dr. CHANDLER. About 200,000 of them are colored and about 30,000 of them are white. Virginia under this bill would get for the education of illiterates a sum of about $500,000.

Senator KENYON. And would that be used in any way for the colored people?

Dr. CHANDLER. I will say that Virginia spends at the present for the education of the illiterates only about $30,000. Now, either that money will revert to the Federal Government or Virginia will have to do something that it has never done before, and will have to put up one-half million dollars to meet that fund for illiteracy.

Senator KENYON. And do you think that you can wipe out illiteracy in less than 10 years?

Dr. CHANDLER. Yes, sir; if Virginia puts up a half million dollars and the Federal Government spends half a million dollars illiteracy will be abolished in the State of Virginia. The greater proportion of the little amount of $30,000 is spent among the colored people and not among the whites. I would say that $20,000 is spent among the colored people and $10,000 is spent on the whites. So Virginia is not omitting the work among the colored people, and in the schools of Richmond, which I have just given up, we found that we furnished 1,600 illiterates in the night schools which were colored and 54 whites

Mr. DONOVAN (interrupting). Let me ask you a question: Do you find that the whites are more prone to take advantage of the opportunities than the blacks? In other words, do they realize the absence of an education and go forward as fast

Dr. CHANDLER. So far as the city of Richmond is concerned, it is the other way. Last year we had 5,900 in the night schools, and of the 5,900, 3,000 were colored and 2,900 were white. In considering those figures you must take into consideration that 32 per cent of the population is colored and 68 per cent of the population is white, so you can see at once that the 32 per cent of the colored population furnishes more to the night schools than the 68 per cent.

Senator SMITH. Is not that possibly because a larger percentage of the white population attend the day schools?

Dr. CHANDLER. But these are persons over and above the dayschool age. In other words, if you will furnish us facilities and carry them to the people and carry on the common-school education, you will get the people interested in education. This bill will do more for education, I am sure, than any bill that has ever been introduced in Congress.

Mr. REED. And that will be true in regard to the teachers' salaries as well as the other features provided for in the bill?

Dr. CHANDLER. That will be true in regard to the teachers' salaries and also with the citizenship. The ordinary citizens says this: Is the National Government interested in this? They say that in regard to all things. If you go to build a road, the question is: "Is the National Government interested in this? If so, we will tax ourselves." And they call a special session of the general assembly for the purpose of taxing themselves for that purpose. In the same way if the Government shows an interest in education the States will call special sessions to tax themselves for the schools. They say, “The United States Government takes an interest in our farms, and we are going to get a farm administrator." And these special grants that Congress have made have done more to help my State than anything else. Vocational education did not have a start in Virginia until the passage of the Smith-Hughes bill.

Now, gentlemen, there is another question for you to take into consideration. The Government itself in the long run will save a great deal of money by the education of its people. I have been working under the Federal Board on the educational rehabilitation work, and think I know of what I am talking. Now, gentlemen, where do you lose your money on the disabled soldier? It is the illiterate. Let us say that two boys walk into my office-there have been-both or them had a leg off. One was a graduate of a high school. He had been a trainman on a railroad, and we had no trouble to put him into the accountancy department. The next one had been a sailor, and he said he had never passed through the fifth grade, and we have to turn him from one thing to another, and do not know what to do with him, because he did not have an education.

If you lay the foundation to educate your citizenship it will pay you, whenever there is an emergency, because your citizenship is going to be better and your people will be better citizens.

There is one other word I want to say and I have done.

Who is opposing the Nation helping to educate its children? Well, there has been this cry of Federal control; but it is not Federal control, but Federal aid.

Who else is opposing this Nation helping to educate its children? Those who are opposed to the public schools. Who is opposed to pubic schools? A great many people are opposed to public schools, I am sorry to say. I come from a State and a city where a very young, vigorous man, an ex-president of the chamber of commerce, told me that he did not believe in public high schools. The man who is opposed to public schools will oppose this bill.

Who else will oppose this bill? I belong to a religious denomination that once believed that the best thing for the denomination to do was to build its own schools and not to have public schools. Now, that denomination has practically given up that point of view, and now believes in public education; but there are still some people who say, "I do not believe we ought to have the public schools."

Senator SMITH. Would you object to stating what that denomination is?

Dr. CHANDLER. It is Baptist. I am frank to make my confession. And still there is another type. There are people who say it is too much money. We do not want to be taxed. That is the other element. Now, that is the other element that is opposed to it, so much money, and they do not want to be taxed.

Now, gentlemen, I say that it means only $1 per inhabitant in this country. There are those who claim that this country has been taxing the citizens of the States and taking away a great many sources of revenue from the States. In Virginia, through the income tax we used to raise a great amount of money, and that was practically repealed at the last session of the general assembly. Then we did not add to the railroad tax. We thought of putting a tax on soft drinks. But it is much easier for the Federal Government to raise the general taxes on special types of property than the States. It is a great thing for the Nation to promote every type of activity within proper bounds, and I think that this bill will promote education as nothing else has. This $100,000,000 will bring $500,000,000 in the aggregate

Mr. DONOVAN. Of course, the ideal would be for the secretary of education to be a highly trained specialist and educator; that would be the ideal. But you know the way that things go in life. Now, suppose that a secretary of education were appointed who was a politician

Dr. CHANDLER. Yes.

Mr. DONOVAN. Is there any way that it could be safeguarded that the secretary of education who possesses such qualifications would be appointed and would have to possess them in order to have the position?

Dr. CHANDLER. That would be better; but even if that were not done I would not be uneasy. You will never put a man at the head of the department of a Government like this who would not say for himself, I am going to make this a success for my reputation," and that is a factor that we must take into consideration, and I believe that he would do his best to develop the work.

The CHAIRMAN. May I suggest that in the States where the appointive power has been with the governor of the State superin

tendents, it is a very common thing for the governor to go outside of his own party in order to appoint the head of that department? Over in Pennsylvania the governor went to New York City and appointed a Democrat, although the governor was a Republican; and while it might be thought that a Cabinet officer would always belong to the party of the oppointing power it would not necessarily mean that it would be a political office.

Dr. CHANDLER. Not necessarily. And even if it should be, I would be willing to trust the appointing power to put at the head of the department a man who would not attempt to run it down. I think it would be far better that a man who is doing the work and doing it successfully should be continued in office, and that he should not be a politician.

Gentlemen, I have finished, and I thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it not true that in the agricultural work, which is not political, that the head of that department, a member of the Cabinet, has never been a real politician? Take the heads of the Agricultural Department, and go back as far as you care.

Dr. CHANDLER. I never heard of the Secretary of Agriculture being a real politician. I assumed that he belonged to the party in power. I know that the present head of the Bureau of Education is a Democrat and that he was appointed by a Republican President.

(Thereupon, at 10.15 o'clock p. m., an adjournment was taken until 10 o'clock of the following day, July 11, 1919.)