and local central bodies to urge vigorous support of the education bill (H. R. 7) upon their Congressmen.

The report of the committee was adopted.

Mr. STERLING. I am not going to indulge in any personal remarks to any extent, but I would like to raise the question, which will be raised in the Senate and in the House, as to whether we are a nation or an aggregation; and as to whether the 25,000,000 children who are attending school are the children of our nation or the children of the localities merely in which they are born and being reared; whether we are responsible as a Nation to those children to give them a fair chance in life, or whether we are not; whether it is somebody else's business, the business of our neighbors or local authorities. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that those, above all questions, are distinctively national questions. When we wanted those boys to offer their lives on the battle fields they were our Nation's boys, and if they are our boys in school, are we going to give them the chance that they ought to have?

This action of this convention of the American Federation of Labor is merely another action of a long series of declarations and urgent requests that better opportunities be given to those 25,000,000 children of laboring people in this country, so that they may become broader and better and more efficient citizens. And that is the appeal we make to you, and through you to Congress, for the passage of this bill, so as to give our children a better chance in life and to make amends for some of the neglect that we have perpetrated on former children.

Mr. DONOVAN. I got the impression from your remarks which I do not think you desire to convey-that, so far as the educational system is concerned, you wanted it to be dominated and radiated. from Washington and to do away with the local control of schools.

Mr. STERLING. If there is anything I said that could be perverted into or distorted into such a thought, I would be glad to eliminate that, for I know that I have no such thought in mind. I have the thought of encouraging, stimulating, and assisting financially the whole country, the children of the whole country, and not dominating or undertaking to control education or to centralize it. My thought is that Uncle Sam's duty is to his children, and every child born in every locality and every State is a child of his and deserves his assistance to a decent education.

Mr. TOWNER. In that connection I would like to state this, which is a very significant thing with regard to national education. During this war the largest and most generous appropriation ever passed by the English Parliament was passed when the Fisher bill was adopted. They have taken both in England and in France-they have both-they have both made most remarkable educational advancement that was ever taken by any nation, and that is to extend the period of free education from 14 to 18 years. In other words, they have gone far beyond what we have in this matter by allowing the education to extend through the grades and the high schools, and have gone farther than they ever did before in the history of these countries, and they have done it under conditions of financial embarrassment such as we do not dream of.

(Thereupon, at 11.40 a. m., the hearing was adjourned until 8 o'clock p. m. of the same day, July 10, 1919.)

EDUCATION BILL.

THURSDAY, JULY 10, 1919.

SENATE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,

AND HOUSE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION,

Washington, D. C.

The Committee on Education and Labor of the United States Senate and the Committee on Education of the House of Representatives met, pursuant to adjournment, at 8 o'clock p. m., in room 201, Senate Office Building.

Present: Senators Kenyon and Smith; Representatives Fess (chairman), Towner, and Donovan.

Also present: Mrs. Mary C. C. Bradford, Denver, Colo., State superintendent of schools of Colorado and former president of the National Education Association; Dr. George D. Strayer, Teachers' College, Columbia University, New York City, president of the National Education Association during the past year; Dr. J. Y. Joyner, Raleigh, N. C., former State superintendent of schools of North Carolina; Dr. J. A. C. Chandler, Richmond, Va., president of William and Mary College; Dr. John A. H. Keith, president State Normal, Indiana, Pa.; Mrs. Josephine Corliss Preston, State superintendent of schools of Washington and president of the National Education Association; Mrs. Cora Wilson Stewart, Frankfort, Ky., president Illiteracy Commission of Kentucky; Mrs. Mary C. Wood, New York City, chairman legislative committee General Federation of Women's Clubs; Mrs. Edward F. Buchner, Baltimore, Md., vice chairman education committee General Federation of Women's Clubs: Charles B. Stillman, Wilmette, Ill., president American Federation of Teachers; Walter R. Siders, Pocatello, Idaho, superintendent of schools; L. V. Lampson, Washington, D. C., vice president American Federation of Teachers; J. W. Crabtree, Washington, D. C., secretary National Education Association; Henry Sterling, representing the American Federation of Labor; and Hugh S. Magill, representing the National Education Association.

The joint committee then proceeded to a further consideration of the bills (H. R. 7 and S. 1017) to create a department of education, to authorize appropriations for the conduct of said department, to authorize the appropriation of money to encourage the States in the promotion and support of education, and for other purposes.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. I do not think it is necessary to wait for the other members of the committee to come in, and if it will be agreeable to the members here we will proceed. We will first hear from Mrs. Mary C. C. Bradford, State superintendent of schools of Colorado.

Mrs. BRADFORD. If the committee please, may I waive my place at this time? Dr. Joyner leaves at 9 o'clock, and I do not leave until 11 o'clock to-morrow. Under these circumstances, I should be pleased to yield to Dr. Joyner.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will be very glad to hear from Dr. Joyner, whom I remember some years ago as president of the National Education Association.

Senator SMITH. And we have heard from him once before very splendidly on the bill.

STATEMENT OF DR. J. Y. JOYNER, RALEIGH, N. C., FORMER STATE SUPERINTENDENT OF NORTH CAROLINA.

Dr. JOYNER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I am very much obliged for the courtesy of Mrs. Bradford and of the committee, making it possible for me to leave to-night at 9 o'clock, having been away for nearly two weeks in the harvesting season, which means a great deal to a farmer.

I shall address my remarks, if I may, to the question of equalization of educational opportunities for the rural population. Since my last appearance before you I feel that I have qualified myself a little better to speak on that question, for after an educational service ofI am almost afraid to say how many years-nearly 40 years, beginning as a boy of 19, I laid down the book for the hoe on the 1st of January and became a countryman, and I have been studying this problem from a somewhat different viewpoint since then.

Now, I am going to jump in and fire away with what I have in mind. One thing I have learned from my farm experience-there are two things that I have learned that I am in daily absorption of, and the first is the appreciation of the inequality of educational opportunity for the country boys and girls on my own farm, and it comes a little closer to me. Another thing that I have learned is that if we are to keep the country people in the country and stop this disastrous drain upon its best blood and its best leadership by the city, and the continual reduction of the country population, we have got to build in the country a rural civilization that shall satisfy the country people or they are going where they can find that.

Another thing that I have learned is that if we are to do that and to lead the country people educationally, intellectually, socially, and spiritually, so as to build up a satisfying rural civilization, we have got to do it through the education of the country. And we can not do it with the inadequate rural schools that we now have.

I shall content myself, then, with calling your attention to some of these inequalities existing in rural education for the rural population to-day, and some suggestions as to the means of removing them. I do not need to detain you long with them. All of the men who know anything about education in this Nation realize that the greatest educational inequalities existing in the Nation to-day are to be found in the rural States and rural communities. I shall simply call your attention to these as shown by the statistics so ably compiled by Dr. Keith, and I will ask you to let them speak for me more convincingly than any words of eloquence I could present to this committee to

You will find from those figures and from figures compiled in some of these bulletins, notably the one on rural education, the following facts: That 58.5 per cent of the people of this country, of this Nation, dwell in the country or in country villages under 2,500 inhabitantsmore than half of the people of this country-that 62.3 per cent of the children enrolled in the public schools of this Nation are country children

The CHAIRMAN (interrupting). Pardon me for interrupting you, Dr. Joyner, but is that now the number?

Dr. JOYNER. Those are the latest statistics available, and have been compiled by the census and the United States Bureau of Education.

Senator KENYON. Do you mean entirely outside of the cities? Dr. JOYNER. I think that includes those in country villages under 2,500 inhabitants. I think that the census runs that way. I think that it has been estimated that at least one-third of the population of the country lives in the open country, outside of any villages or city.

Now, gentlemen, I call your attention to two or three things brought out by that, and one other fact: These figures will show that the proportion of children of the country population is greater than the proportion of children of the urban population. These figures will show that notwithstanding 58 per cent of the population is rural and 62 per cent of the enrollment of children is rural, and only 45 per cent of the annual expenditures for salaries for teachers is for rural teachers. Those figures speak for themselves.

The further fact you will find in these bulletins and in these tables is that the rural schools for the rural population are inefficient in nearly all the essentials of efficient schools, more inefficient than the others. You will find that the average terms of the rural school is more than two months less than is the average terms of the others. You will find that the average salary is far below the others. The exact facts and figures you will get here, and I will not detain you with that. You will find that the rural schools are far more inefficient in buildings and in equipment, in supervision and in administration, in trained teachers, very few of them ever having had any professional training, only the essentials, and consequently you will find that the rural schools are behind the other schools of this country.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that not inevitably so, Dr. Joyner?

Dr. JOYNER. Yes, sir; I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, now, as to this bill; do you think that this bill will help the situation to any great extent?

Dr. JOYNER. Mr. Chairman, it will help it, I think, as I hope to show you a little later on.

Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, in length of terms, in teachers, in buildings and equipment, in supervision and administration, and in practically all the essentials of efficient schools the rural population are behind the urban population of this country.

Now, if you will examine these figures a little further you will find this fact, that as a rule the wealth per capita of population, and the wealth per capita of school children, is in an inverse proportion to the percentage of rural population, with a few exceptions