to show that it has the machinery for that purpose. That has nothing to do with anything else.

Senator KENYON. What I want to find out is in regard to whether or not the Federal Government can dictate the curriculum. For instance, could the Federal Government say, "You shall not teach French in your school"?

Mr. TowNER. No; it has no control over that at all. The only power it has is in regard to these funds for that particular purpose, and the only power it has in so far as these appropriations are concerned is to see that they are used for that particular purpose.

Mr. DONOVAN. And what do you think the effect would be throughout the country-for instance, in New York State there is quite a strong teachers' organization, and the papers are constantly going after it for equal opportunities, etc. Do you suppose that this larger system, if the teachers were nationalized, would it leave them in the relative position through what was feared the Government would be if it held the railways under the Secretary of the Treasury? Mr. TOWNER. No, Mr. Donovan. This is more nearly analagous to the appropriations that are made by the Agricultural Department for particular specific purposes, in which the Secretary of Agriculture has the right to determine whether or not the States will appropriate or have appropriated for particular things a sufficient amount for those things. In regard to teaching, this bill gives no right for the control of teachers by the Government, but specifically excludes it. It has nothing to do with that except this: It says to the State: "If you raise and spend a certain amount of money for the particular purpose, if you will duplicate the amount of money that the Government gives for the pay of teachers, we will help you by paying the teachers." This is the language that is used in regard to that part all the way through: "That all of the educational facilities encouraged by the provisions of this act and accepted by a State-"

That would be the payment of the teachers

"shall be organized, supervised, and administered exclusively by the legally constituted State and local educational authorities of such State."

They don't say how they shall spend it, in what manner, but only require an assurance that it will be used for that particular purpose, and so on, for the other provisions of the bill.

Senator KENYON. May I ask you a question. there, Mr. Towner? Mr. TOWNER. Yes, sir.

Senator KENYON. Provided the State wanted to secure under section 8

Mr. TOWNER (interrupting). Yes, sir.

Senator KENYON. Part of the funds for the removal of illiteracy, and did not care to operate under section 10, to encourage the States to equalize educational opportunities

Mr. TOWNER (interrupting). Why, they can take any one.

Mr. DONOVAN. Segregate them, in other words.

Mr. TOWNER. Yes, sir. That is the reason that we authorize these different appropriations.

Senator KENYON. I do not think that has been understood.

Mr. TOWNER. It ought to be understood. We give to the General Government the right to say what shall be appropriated of the $100,

000,000, or whatever amount is appropriated, and we say to the State, "You can take any one of those; if you want to assure the Government that you will raise an equal amount for the removal of illiteracy, if you want to insure the Government that you will raise an equal amount for the Americanization of immigrants, if you want to insure the Government that you will raise an equal amount for the equalizing of opportunities, if you want to insure the Government that you will raise an equal amount for the payment of teachers, or if you want to insure the Government that you will raise an equal amount for physical education, we will give you all of these or any of them. It is entirely at the option of the State.

Mr. DONOVAN. Senator Kenyon asked you something in regard to the curriculum. I did not get the answer. He asked you something as to whether or not the States would be dominated by the Federal Government so as to limit the requirements of the State in regard to the curriculum.

Mr. TOWNER. Only one, and I will call attention to that, and that is in regard to the equalization of educational opportunities. That is section 10 of the bill. Now, the requirement-the only place where there is any particular requirement made besides raising an equal amount of money and assuring the application of the funds-is with regard to this particular section. Now, this provision or proviso, with regard to this section, on page 8 of my bill, reads:

Provided, however, That in order to share in the apportionment provided by this section a State shall establish and maintain the following requirements, unless prevented by constitutional limitations, in which case these requirements shall be approximated as nearly as constitutional provisions will admit: A legal school term of at least 24 weeks in each year for the benefit of all children of school age in such State.

There are only a very few of the States that have not that already. A compulsory school-attendance law requiring all children between the ages of 7 and 14 to attend some school for at least 24 weeks in each year; a law requiring that the English language shall be the basic language of instruction in common-school branches in all schools, public and private.

Now, all of the States of the Union have compulsory attendance laws. I am not able to say whether or not they all come within this, but it is a very low standard-as low as any that ought to be made. Now, those are the only requirements to be met in order to give them a right to share in the funds for equalizing opportunities.

Mr. BLANTON. On page 2, section 3, of the bill, after providing that the Bureau of Education shall be transferred to this Department of Education, it provides that all other educational departments, at the option and discretion of the President, may be transferred to the Department of Education. If we are going to have a Department of Education, why should we put that burden and responsibility on the President? Why should not Congress exercise its prerogative in transferring at one time all branches of education to the Department of Education? Why should we leave that to the President?

Mr. TOWNER. That is a very pertinent inquiry, and I think that it is a matter that might be discussed when we come to a discussion of the amendments to the bill.

Mr. BLANTON. As for myself, I would be in favor of putting within the scope and under the control of the Department of Education every branch of education in the Government.

Mr. TOWNER. This is what has been done whenever a department has been created, but it is really unwise to transfer these all at one fell swoop, and sometimes it is better that they should wait until they have finished the work in which they are engaged before they are transferred. I can think of one or two instances in which it might not be better to transfer. For instance, you take the farm boys' colleges under the Department of Agriculture, and in which every boy, as you know, receives encouragement in that work throughout the United States. I can see-I am not so sure that it ought to be transferred to the Department of Education at all.

Mr. BLANTON. I would like to ask just one other question. On page 5, or at the bottom of page 4 and on page 5, under section 5, after prescribing the duty of the Department of Education to conduct studies and investigations in the field of education and to report thereon, you provide, under subdivisions (e) the following:

Preparation and supply of competent teachers for the public schools.

Mr. TOWNER. Yes.

Mr. BLANTON. Does that mean, taking the whole paragraph as a whole, that the Department of Education is going to prescribe to all of the normal schools of our States particular lines of studies that must be pursued?

Mr. TowNER. No. That has absolutely nothing whatever to do with that. This is only-I do not know that it would be necessary to put these provisions in at all. What it means is this only, Mr. Blanton: That these investigations and researches shall certainly be carried on. Nothing is done in regard to the teaching itself. In fact, it is primarily intended for the purpose of the preparation of bulletins and for the purpose of giving information

Mr. BLANTON (interrupting). Taken in connection with the other portions of section 5, which says that it is the duty of the Department of Education to conduct studies and investigations in the field of education

Mr. TOWNER (interrupting). That has not anything to do with the control of it. However, Mr. Blanton, I think that that is a matter that we can very probably consider by way of amendment when we have it before us at that time. I am quite sure that nobody has ever drafted a bill or developed a bill that is a perfect bill.

Senator SMITH. I think that the both of us agree that there are a number of amendments which might be put into the bill. So far as this bill is concerned, it does not contemplate for one moment any interference with the plan or with the conduct of education in the various States. It does require the department, however, to gather together and to give the information to the whole country, to gather it from the whole country and to give it to the whole country.

Mr. BLANTON. My question was directed to the legal effect of the phraseology, which says that it shall be the duty of the Department of Education to conduct studies and investigations in the field of education and report thereon.

Senator SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BLANTON. And what is the legal effect of that phraseology? Senator SMITH. Well, it is the object to investigate the problems of education and to study the problem as it touches the whole United

States and to give the results of such study to each State, so that each State may know what is going on throughout the country.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to hear from Senator Smith.

STATEMENT OF HON. HOKE SMITH, UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM GEORGIA.

Senator SMITH. I do not desire, Mr. Chairman, to make any extended statement with reference to the bill, further than to give a general view of what it contemplates.

It first contemplates the creation of a Department of Education. Those of us who advocate it all agree that the work of education in the United States ranks as high as the work in agriculture, or as high as the work in labor; it reaches every part of the country and all the people of the country, and we feel that the National Government can well, not interfering with the States in their work, or with the municipalities in their work, that it can well contribute to aid the States in their work.

By doing so we broaden the field of investigation and study, we broaden the volume of information that will be gathered for the use of the States, we aid them with that information, leaving it to them finally to determine their individual policies and their individual plans, and we contribute somewhat from the general fund of the country toward the education in each of the States, just as the States contribute to the local schools of the State from the general fund, the local schools or the local funds being required to carry the principal burden. So can the National Government contribute to the States, and I think that the bill very carefully guards the rights of the States to continue to control their own systems of education and their particular work.

As I take it, Mr. Chairman, it is a contribution by the Government to the knowledge on the subject of education, to stimulate the work in the States and in the localities upon lines of education, and yet at the same time carefully to guard the rights of the States to work out finally the system that suits the particular localities.

That, broadly speaking, is the scheme of the bill. It specializes in certain lines of education; it takes up the subject of Americanization, teaching the English language; it takes up the subject of illiteracy; it takes up the subject of public-school education, and especially rural education, and seeks to stimulate the better preparation of teachers. It takes, broadly, the contributions toward schools themselves

Mr. BLANTON. Will you permit an interruption, please, Senator? Senator SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BLANTON. Further than enlarging the scope of our present institutions and giving an opportunity for study and developing education, and having a new Cabinet officer, what more will this bill, if passed, bring about than the work now being carried on by the Bureau of Education?

Senator SMITH. It broadens it by increasing the funds, giving greater dignity, by recognizing education as standing in the very highest field of national endeavor, and it contributes money and

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specializes in particular classes of work which the bureau now has no special authority to do-has no special authority and no funds with which to do it.

Mr. BLANTON. It has the machinery but not the money.

Senator SMITH. It has not the machinery to do what we contemplate, or the authority to do what we contemplate. I think that some of the additional branches of educational work might, perhaps, be added to the Department of Education. I doubt whether it should invade the agricultural work, because it is a class of work, while it is educational, yet it is work in agriculture, and I think that the farm-extension work through the colleges is in splendid shape, and I do not know that it ought to be transferred. It may be later on that the Department of Education will, as it gets hold of the work, get ready for it. We thought, however, that it had better grow and develop first.

Mr. BLANTON. There are bills pending before the House and the Senate committees to institute a national conservatory of music and art. Why should not that legislation, if there is an intention on the part of the committee to report that out later, why should it not be handled right with this legislation?

Senator SMITH. I do not think that I would vote for those bills. I think that the primary work of the Government is to give the child and the man a chance to prepare himself for the battle of life, for the real struggle of life. If the Government wants to give some money to music and art, it may do so-I believe in both; I regard, however, the educational function of the Government a responsibility for the simpler preparation, for these necessary things that a man requires to meet his responsibility as a citizen, and to use and utilize the chances that are offered to him in our country both for support and for improvement, and I hardly think that art and music ought to be added to our public-school system further than it is done locally. As for myself, I believe in it thoroughly, and I would be delighted to see a department of art and a department of music, but I hardly think that it is a subject

Mr. DONOVAN (interrupting). But how can we divorce the system now in effect in the leading educational States throughout the country, the dual system of training and teaching of art and music with the other educational branches

Senator SMITH. I said simply as a local effort to create-but I will not talk about that bill. I have not read the bill as yet. I do not believe that I ought to talk about a bill that I have not read. I am not in a position to discuss it any way. I believe in using an art

Mr. DONOVAN. You know that it is said that music had great weight in winning the war; that it inspired the boys

Senator SMITH. Yes; music hath charms to soothe the savage breast. I would not be willing to say anything against a measure of that kind until I had read it.

Mr. BLANTON. I was not committing myself to the measure at all, but my idea was that if we intended to spend the time of the committees later on in connection with that bill, that we could dispose of all the bills in connection with the present piece of legislation, and save the time of the committee and the expense to the Government.

Senator SMITH. I do not know where that bill is. Has it been in the Senate?