whether or not a combination of coal and electric, or gas and electric, is going to help the electric range business, or is the consensus of opinion that the electric and coal combination will prove to be a hindrance to electric development.

MR. FARQUHAR: In talking to us about a combination range, we are not in the market. If you have a combination coal and electric range, a woman, when it comes to wash days, will probably put coal in the stove to heat the hot water and do all her cooking for that day on it, and every time you have two means for cooking in the kitchen, the electric range is going to be an auxiliary to the coal or wood range.

In our territory, we offer forty or fifty dollars for the coal or wood range, take it out and put it into our shop, put some polish on it and sell it over and in that way we have disposed of two or three thousand ranges, and there is never any question about a combination coal and electric range.

THE CHAIRMAN: Now, gentlemen, we have heard from Mr. Farquhar, who has the benefit of water power. We would like to hear from some of the steam plants, and get their views on that point. I have just one important thought in connection with that and one reason for which I do not want to introduce it. I made a statement a few moments ago that I believed that electric cooking should be sold not on a competitive basis, but for what electric cooking was worth. In the same way, I believe that in selling ranges we should sell them for what they are worth, and one of the strongest arguments is cleanliness, elimination of coal and ashes and various other things. I believe there is a field for the combination range. I would much prefer it, rather than losing a sale in certain districts, to have the water heating problem taken care of in that way. I believe we cannot make any rules, but we can get together and express our ideas on this, but each section of the country has its own individual problems, and it is never known what is the best thing to do under the circumstances; but as long as Mr. Smith has asked me to express a personal opinion, I would say that at the present time we were not encouraging the combination range.

THEODORE W. WADE: Recently we installed an electric range for a party who lives next door to his son-in-law, both being a family of four; they were using coal oil, and this party to whom I sold the range has been coming in for the past three months telling us that he has been using his electric range cheaper than his son-in-law has cooked with coal oil; this is an incident in that particular family.

In regard to hot water heaters, however, we took the electric hot water heating proposition up throughout different sections of the country and finally decided upon the method employed in the New England States by the Central Maine Power Company, installing a 4800-watt water heater with two-pole double-throw switch used in conjunction

with the electric range, and we find this works out very satisfactorily with the customers.

On an actual test of water heating, having one installed in a local electrician's home, we find that the heater, with the water entering between 45 and 50 degrees, heats a thirty-gallon tank which was drawn off at the top at 160 degrees in approximately one hour. Assuming that they got all the hot water in the thirty-gallon tank which they wanted at our cooking rate of $.035, less twenty per cent or $.028 net per kw., that brought the cost of heating the thirty gallon tank of water in an hour's time to $.134, or less than $.005 per gallon.

Of course using gas in our locality is practically out of the question, as gas is $2.25 net per thousand; so we do not consider that as competition. Sale on electric ranges has not been very rapid, for the reason that the Company has not been inclined to go after the range business. However, in the last three months they have taken a different stand and decided that the range business is profitable. Out of approximately 3800 residential customers, we have installed about sixty electric ranges.

M. HENOCH : On the subject of combination. ranges, I represent a company that has had some experience with this class of business, and it was proved that the idea of selling combination electric. and other fuel is undesirable. I have been in territories where farmers are using electric cooking, and I find that they become efficient users of electric ranges, from the fact that they use electricity exclusively.

My experience has taught me that the person who uses the electric range most inefficiently is the one who has a coal or wood range alongside of the electric range. To sell the electrical idea, it must be done 100 per cent. I desire to answer the gentleman from the Chicago Commonwealth Edison Company who said something about low voltage trouble with ranges in suburban territories; for the reason that his troubles of today will be my troubles of tomorrow. I agree with the Chairman, Mr. Greenwood, if you cannot make a desirable sale, refrain from selling. If you have low voltage conditions in the suburban territories, discourage electric range installations, unless you can give satisfactory voltage by using larger transformers.

He says he would like to have the manufacturer develop means whereby if the voltage was low it could be increased by some mechanism in the burner. This is not a manufacturer's proposition, but it is strictly up to the central station. Bring the voltage up to give good service or do not sell the

range.

MR. WADE: We had one particular incident back about three years ago where a customer's gas was very bad; in fact, was entirely out for a while. That is when they bought the electric range. By the time the electric range was connected up the gas was on again, so the lady of the house would not use the electric range, as she said it was too slow. As the

range was paid for, it remained installed. At the end of two years' time this party, of her own free will, has removed the gas range from her kitchen.

THE CHAIRMAN: Now, gentlemen, if there is no further discussion on this section of the report, we will go to the last section, which is a short section.

MR. MAJOR: Is there any central station represented here which is successfully disposing of ranges in territory where there is a low-price gas? If there is not any, I would like Mr. Pagan to tell us a little more of what he had in mind.

cent rate was around about twenty-one dollars per year. On reducing it to five by using electric ranges and other heating apparatus, he was able to derive a revenue of twenty-seven dollars per residence. There are some three thousand ranges in operation and the gas rate is sixty cents.

THE CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, we can consider the discussion closed unless there is some other point to be brought out. We will go to the other section of the report on heavy duty equipment.

MR. TILLMAN: We have 75-cent gas, 500 B.t.u., and getting good service. It would be absolutely foolish for us to consider duplicating our investment, trying to force electric ranges at five cents a kilowatt hour with 75-cent gas. We have over a hundred ranges on our line, and I don't know how many will be placed during the year, but the price of gas will more than likely increase, due to the high price of oil, and naturally the cost of gas is going up.

I do feel that the question of electric ranges is one of the best commercial products to be handled by central stations today.

MR. HENOCH: I have read that report and I have looked at the formula at the bottom. It strikes me there is one point that ought to be covered and that is the method of reaching the small central station which wants that information and has not got the engineers to give it to them.

I was in a town in South Dakota not long ago where the central station was considering putting in a rate, and the central station manager figured out his cost to connect, and he had an investment of something like three hundred dollars, and he said, "How long will that range have to be there before I get my transformer back?"

Now, that is the attitude of the small central station man. He is trying to see how many bills have got to be paid before he gets the money he has invested in the transformer or what is the percentage of returns that he gets from that investment. think the small central station ought to get information of that kind, that it is not a return of investment, but interest on his investment.

I

F. F. FORSHEE: I just want to answer this gas problem that seems to be in the air. Recently I had an opportunity to investigate the situation in Cleveland, where they have gas at sixty cents, 600 B.t.u. There are some three thousand electric ranges in operation there, and I had an opportunity of talking with Mr. Miller, of the Cleveland Illuminating Co., and ascertained that the rates for electricity are something like six or seven cents. He showed me that figures for revenue per residence at the seven

J. F. KILLEEN: I just want to bring out one phase of the situation in regard to electric ranges. It may seem that I am taking the wrong attitude in in a discussion as to comparisons with gas, and perhaps with coal, you naturally limit your talking points in the introduction of electric ranges. I do not think there is any more comparison between the cost of cooking by electricity and the cost of cooking by other fuel than there is to compare the cost of running an automobile as against a street-car.

Now, there is more than the matter of price involved. I want to point it out to you as a manufacturer's representative that there is a very serious responsibility being carried on, or at least available for you central station men to carry on, in that we have been led to believe that you were going to market the electric range almost independent of any gas or any coal stoves, of any coal rates or gas rates; and I want to point out to you that the manufacturers of electric ranges in the last two years have very considerably increased their physical facilities to the extent of serving you men at the time you wanted these ranges. It is rather disappointing to me to hear a discussion here for the last fifteen or twenty minutes on the advisability of the introduction of electric ranges in the kitchen by and with the addition of a coal range.

I think all you men who have been in the electric range business will appreciate that you have sold electric ranges with the idea primarily that it was the cool kitchen idea. There are some fundamentals here, gentlemen. If the electric range is placed in the light of producing a cool kitchen, because it provides through a fine and efficient electric oven a better medium for serving foods on the table, why, let us say that is so. Stand right up, but don't apologize. Say of course it makes the kitchen cool, and so on.

This is the first electric range meeting that I have attended in the last seven or eight years where we have had to apologize-pardon me, gentlemen, for being so serious about this thing. I do not mean to criticize, but if all these points are true concerning the electric range, let's stand up and say so. If, on the other hand, the electric range is not needed in this situation that I have referred to, in justice to the manufacturers, let us know it.

THE CHAIRMAN: In passing, I would like to say, Mr. Killeen, that I believe that the discussion here has been with a view to comparing the costs,

not as you speak of it. I think we are all sold on electric cooking, as well as all of the gentlemen here, and they are just speaking of that incidentally, the comparative costs. I think we all realize that electric cooking has come to stay.

We of the central stations that have been considering electric cooking have very good reasons perhaps for not saying so, but will come into line. at the proper time, which will be decided by the judgment of the management and the manufacturers need not worry for their equipment.

The water power people have their problems and the gas and electric people have their problems, but the all-electric kitchen has come to stay. Nothing can stop it, and I think if we sell the electric cooking idea to the public, the public will take care of it and it will all swing around to the central stations. We are still in the promotion stage, but we are running fast.

MR. KILLEEN: I just want to make this comment. There are not many of us here this afternoon, and I know that a great many people could not find this place. That is an explanation in justice to the meeting. Now, for that reason, my point was, so many people, not being able to find. this room, in reading the report of the meeting, which is being taken down here, unless it is cleared up in regard to the combination range, there is apt to be a bad impression. There is apt to be a bad impression on the part of those who read the report later. That is the reason I wanted the situation made clear here at this time, for the benefit of the report.

THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the future chairman of the Commercial Section is with us, and he will probably review all that has been done or said here. today, and he can strike from the record anything. that might be objectionable. I think we are safe.

Now, this part of the report pertaining to heavy duty equipment is short. I wish we had a room full of central station men and manufacturers to discuss this heavy duty equipment. That is another thing we are including. I am glad to see it personally in this report this year. We are only beginning to realize the possibilities and I only wish we had a room full of people here in the industry so they could hear this report. Does anyone want to comment on the report on heavy equipment?

J. L. SCHROYER: In the discussion on ranges, I gained the impression that you gentlemen are primarily interested in apparatus that can be added to the line that will increase the number of kilowatt hours that you can sell.

Right in this connection, I would like to point out a few very interesting points. One is, the installation for a cafeteria, for example, serving two thousand meals a day, will consume as many kilowatt hours per month as one hundred electric range customers. That is quite a comparison.

If I were a salesman, going out to get a job or a big order, I believe I would try to place an order

for one heavy duty equipment in preference to one hundred electric ranges, and I believe that could be done with the same amount of advertising and labor. It is surprising how easy it is to sell this heavy duty equipment, and I am sure there are many here who have had experience in selling this equipment, and I hope they will have something to say along this line.

THE CHAIRMAN: It is unfortunate, but I believe it is something we will have to look forward to in getting further information on these things. As I said before, reading the report, I believe every merchandising man should soon come to a realization of the possibilities and the merchandising profit in the handling of heavy equipment, particularly the desirability of the income producing qualities of these big bake ovens. It is a subject that is worth a whole lot of time in promoting.

Is there any further discussion?

A. M. LLOYD: We started about three years ago selling heavy duty equipment, particularly hotel equipment. We have in the neighborhood of fifty Edison bake ovens on our system, 5 to 25 kilowatts capacity. Any time any of the gentlemen present will get in touch with me, I shall be glad to furnish them with such data as is available in Chicago.

We have installed in one of the greatest restaurants of its kind, practically a complete electric equipment. They have three or four specially built broilers, also bake ovens and five ranges. In this particular installation we enlarged the oven of a standard Edison range by putting one on top of the other and one on each side at the same time, building an insulated frame around them. This larger oven was necessary because on the standard range the oven was too small for large roasts.

Upon checking the comparative cost of electric cooking in this case, it figures less than gas.

There is a wider price spread on this line than on the household range line and therefore that much more desirable from a merchandising point of view. It is necessary to have salesmen specialize on this class of business, because of the many special features necessary in this particular line.

As regards repairs on this heavy duty equipment, we have experienced little trouble. There have been instances where repairs were necessary in the bake ovens, but the factory has taken care of these matters without charge to the customer. The factory is behind us in giving the best service, I am glad to say. Heavy duty ranges have not been pushed as much as the bake oven business, but that is coming. This heavy duty equipment is one of the best classes of apparatus for filling up the daytime valley of

central stations.

THE CHAIRMAN: This session of the Commercial Section will be in order.

The first on the program is a report from the Electric Vehicle Bureau, of which Mr. Mansfield has been the exceedingly efficient Chairman for the past year, this being the first year that the Bureau has been part of the Commercial Section. We will ask Mr. Mansfield to tell us what is in his mind.

E. S. MANSFIELD: The ideal report should not assume the form of a history, neither should it aspire to prophecy, but should recount the problem incident to establishing the electric vehicle in its legitimate field to the degree which it rightly deserves, and furnish the solution to these problems so clearly and conclusively that the working out of the solutions would spell success. That would indeed be an ideal report, but unfortunately this cannot be realized at this time-only attempted.

Before suggesting plans for the future, it appears advisable to look back for a moment in order to determine just where we are and why we are where

we are.

Having been graduated from a full-grown, though financially crippled independent national association into a national section of a flourishing sister association, and after a few years' attempt at acclimation being promoted into a bureau of the Commercial Section of that association, the electric vehicle interests found themselves in rather an unsettled condition, necessitating a new organization under new auspices and a somewhat different sphere of action.

Some of the old committees had become obsolete, the active personnel had been materially changed, and the new conditions necessitated a somewhat different treatment with new committees to carry on the work. The complete organization of the Electric Vehicle Bureau required considerable time, so that the activities proposed have had the benefit of but a portion of the working year, with the consequent result that much that was planned is still in a formulative state, and additional time will be required to realize the desired results.

The reports of the various committees have been presented in print and need not be reviewed as a whole at this time.

The Insurance Committee, in which a member of our Executive Committee has been especially active, has done most excellent work, and we can look forward in the near future to differential rates in fire and liability insurance favorable to the electric which will be of material benefit to all those interested in electric vehicles.

The Garage and Rates Committee has been espe

which solve some of the perplexing problems of today and will tend to increase the number of electrics in use.

The Comparative Data, Transportation Engineering and Exhibition Committees have ambitious plans under way which, if successfully developed and completed, will do more to popularize the electric than any activities heretofore attempted.

The future of the electric is in our own hands. If the same character of cooperative effort and systematic endeavor had been exercised by the electric vehicle interests as has been developed by the gasolene interests, we should now have an established industry producing attractive revenue for the manufacturers and central stations. Nor is it yet. too late to make this dream come true.

In the past there has been a tendency to expand the use of electrics of both types into fields and to an extent for which they were not designed and are not adapted, and many of the apparent failures are due to this cause. The electric has a limited sphere

of action and should be confined to its own field, but within its own naturally prescribed field it is practically unlimited and has great possibilities.

New York furnishes us a striking example-here the New York Edison Company has carried out a sane campaign to place electrics in use for short hauls within city limits, and the figures show that over 50 per cent of the electric trucks in use in this country are found in the territory represented by the New York district. We can follow, wisely, this example and confine our efforts to such use as experience has proved profitable and to the extent of its natural limitations.

A closer working understanding between the manufacturers and central stations must be accomplished. The manufacturer must realize that the central station's transportation service requirements are not fundamentally electric and they should not try to force electrics upon them. They have a right, however, to expect the central station to assist in selling electric transportation to such of its customers as can benefit thereby, and the experience of such customers will in turn tend to create in the central station a desire to use electrics in such parts of their transportation system as they may be used in advantageously.

Each central station should have someone in its organization sufficiently informed in electric transportation to be able to advise its customers fairly and impartially on such questions as may arise.

The manufacturer's agents should, on the other hand, work in sympathy with the utility power salesman for the building up of the power load.

These agencies must work together and not against one another.

Garages and service stations should be established