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Mr. COFFEY. I think $1,500 or $2,000. I have been here a year since October

Mr. MOTOYA. Do you not think it would be well, in view of this confusion, for this committee to wipe out all of these claims?

Mr. COFFEY. Wipe out everything that is not just. If you gentlemen do not think my claim is just, wipe it out; and if I am not contented with the salary

Mr. MONTOYA.. You desire to start over with a clean slate?

Mr. COFFEY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you desire to say anything further, Mr. Coffey?

Mr. COFFEY. Yes; I have some papers here.

The CHAIRMAN. We have some others to hear. If you can finish in five minutes, all right.

Mr. COFFEY. I can not do it justice in five minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do the best justice you can in five minutes, and we will see how you get along.

Mr. COFFEY. With reference to our contract with him, I engaged him and we made a contract with him to prosecute that one case.

Mr. JEFFERIS. That was on a percentage basis, was it?

Mr. COFFEY. He was to prosecute that case for $1,000. If he did not winI forget just exactly, but if he won he was to get a percentage.

Mr. ROACH. Mr. Ballinger said he was employed under a general contract in 1913 or 1914 to check up the estate of the Chippewa Indians. Do you know anything about that?

Mr. COFFEY. I have heard of it, but it was a council of these interlopers. It was a secret council-what the Indians termed up there, in court, and under oath-they termed that a council of thieves.

Mr. ROACH. I know, but in 1913, 1914, 1915 the Indian Department here at Washington was recognizing those fellows as representatives of the Chippewa Indians, were they not?

Mr. COFFEY. I do not know about that. Yes; perhaps they were, but this was a council that was not authorized. It was not under the constitution of the general council. It was a secret meeting composed of 9 or 10 of these interlopers, and there was not an Indian in the council. It was called at 11 o'clock at night-not earlier than 11-somewhere around 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, and one of them says that "when these resolutions were passed there were not more than 9 or 10 of us," and "when it was exposed, when I laid that matter before those men, that was authorized at that secret meeting, before the general council arrived there, they were ready to throw these men out of the general council." And what did these fellows do? They sat right down there and wrote resolutions rescinding the acts they did in this secret meeting and said that as this matter had never been presented before the general council, "we therefore say it is void." This is the kind of men they represent. He did not represent the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota. He never did, except in that contract and that one case, and when that case was terminated his services were terminated and he was more than well paid for it. We collected more than $400 to start him on that case, and he has pulled out with this bunch there that has attempted to be recognized by the Indian Office and milked them for $8,000 or $10,000.

Mr. ROACH. The only fee he accounts for here was in 1916. Did you pay him that?

Mr. COFFEY. In 1917 was when we paid him that $400.

The CHAIRMAN. In answer to a question of Mr. Jefferis you said there was a representative of the Indian Office there in 1919 at a conference that was called at your sorrow. What did you mean by that?

Mr. COFFEY. In 1919-our local council is held on the first Tuesday of June of each year. At those local councils delegates are elected who shall go to the general council on the 2d of July of each year. On the 2d of June of 1919 I was here with two other of the Chippewa Indians. One of them was John Kyle. He was one that belonged to the other bunch. There was a controversy there. John Kyle got here in town and got broke and he wanted the Indian Office to pay his expenses, and, as I understand, he was a common nuisance. By the way, Ballinger tried to get the Indian Office to pay his expenses. Finally the commissioner here-it occurred to him that we ought to get together and a proposition was made to request an adjournment of those meetings of the local council up there at which the delegates were elected until the 17th

of June. Well, I agreed to that and we all agreed to it-to adjourn. Well, then, it seems that the suggestion did not reach many of those local councils to act in time before they adjourned, and they had finished their regular meeting.

So on June 3 the local council met there, selected its delegates, completed its business, and adjourned, and some day or two afterwards the agent came down there and notified some of the local councils there that there was to be another council held on June 17 at Pinehurst for the purpose of selecting its delegates. The council had selected its delegates in regular order and there was no authority under the constitution to elect other delegates at some other time; and so an adjournment was taken. The whole thing was complete, but there was nothing under the constitution or elsewhere to authorize setting that election aside. So on June 17 at Pinehurst

The CHAIRMAN. Was that the one the representative of the Indian Office attended? Mr. COFFEY, Yes. Mr. Dickens was the Indian agent. He was a close friend of Mr. Morrison and Mr. Fairbanks. At Red Lake, Fairbanks and Morrison had a store up there, and there was a great deal of business between them and the Indians there, and the Indian agent thought that was not right. I have a statement here, and I have been told in person by the agent of the transactions between those two men on that reservation. The business had been removed to White Earth Reservation, and the local council that was held at Pinehurst was in his district. He went around and had posted notices for this mee ing to be held on the 17th day of June 1919, to elect delegates to the general council. Delegates had already been elected in the regular manner under the constitution, and a great many of the Indians did not know what this was and why it was to be that way, and there were a lot of them that attended, but these other fellows got busy, gathered up their relatives and friends and went outside the State, everywhere, because of the controversy and dispute as to their right to be on the rolls. They got very busy and thought there would be something done affecting their status there.

The CHAIRMAN. Right at that point, since there is a call of the House, I think we will recess until Friday morning at 10.30.

COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS,
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
Friday, January 20, 1922.

The committee this day met, Hon. Homer P. Snyder (chairman) presiding. STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES R. DAVIS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Davis, we will hear from you this morning as proponent of the bill. You may have such time as you desire in the matter. Give us a brief statement of why you presented the bill and what you think about it. Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman, ordinarily, at least that is my experience, a bill of this nature, introduced as it is by an outsider, usually says it is introduced by request. But in this instance I did not care to say that it was introduced by request for the following reasons. I know Mr. Webster Ballinger, and have known him for 15 years or more. That is part of my time in Congress. I have been here about 20 years, and occupied the same room in the House Office Building since the building was constructed. I have known of my own knowledge that he was at all times for the last five or six or seven years or more industriously working at what I considered in the interests of the Chippewa Indians, regardless of mix up as to their general councils or anything of the kind. He has conversed with me and a Congressman who had an adjoining room, and he has brought members of the tribe up to see me to influence me in behalf of the real Indians of the Chippewa Reservation.

My home is Minnesota. I knew the tribe of Chippewa Indians before he was born; I will state that. I knew the Sioux Indians, the difficulties between them, and I also know in a general way, without being able to give details, that those Indians by some one, I will not say who, have been robbed of some of their allotments and some of the money that has been in the Treasury. My vote has always been against giving them, say, $200,000 up there for overhead

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charges. I understand what overhead charges mean, being connected, as I am now, with all the departments of the Government for years on the Appropriations Committee. One of the curses at the present time is that of too much overhead charges in the various departments. I speak of that positively now, and I want that to go in the record. In my opinion the overhead charge connected with the management of the Chippewa proposition has been enormous, and for some reason it was hard to get it down. Mr. Ballinger has always been working, to my personal knowledge, to reduce it, and at the present time I think it is down to $60,000.

This bill mentions litigation. You will notice the words in here, "to defray the expenses of litigation and proceedings instituted by direction of the general council." I believe that proceedings instituted by them may be in the form of a man trying to induce Congressmen to do the right thing. That is a proceed.ing. Some would call it lobbying, but I think it constitutes proceedings. Aside from that, I can not say the number, Mr. Chairman, but numerous legal proceedings have been instituted by Mr. Ballinger, both in Minnesota in regard to taxes of these lands and down here in suits in equity. Aside from all that, he has spent, to my knowledge, a great portion of his time for a great many years working along the lines that I have suggested. Therefore this measure was introduced by me, not by request, as you see, but of my previous knowledge. I have always understood that this tribe of Indians had a general council up there and they still have. As to the method of getting it, we heard Mr. Coffey the other day. There seems to be a dispute among them, but my understanding is that the present general council has been the only council that has operated along these lines. How they obtained it-by manipulation, by political activity, this, that, or the other, which, as the chairman well knows, sometimes happensI do not know, but I introduced this bill upon the theory that the general council truly represented, at least, a large majority of the Chippewa Indians. That is why I introduced it. But I say to you gentlemen here, from my acquaintance with Mr. Ballinger, I do not believe that he for one moment will attempt to rob the Indians of any of their $6,000,000 fund which lies in the Treasury. All of his efforts have been to the contrary, and I think he has been successful in several suits down here in the Supreme Court of the United States, through suits of equity; I do not know where they were, I can not give you the details, but I know he was successful in Minnesota in keeping the Indians from being taxed by our State unjustly. It was his efforts that started suits up there, sending out briefs along those lines. I can not answer questions that Mr. Coffey would like to ask me about details of this; I can not; but, Mr. Chairman, this bill is drawn with so much care to see that the Indians shall not be robbed of one dollar expended under this that is not just—

"Said accounts to be first approved by the president and secretary of said general council and certified to the Secretary of the Interior."

It has got to go through the general council and to go to the Secretary of the Interior for approval. He can approve it or disapprove it. If he is opposed to it, he d'sapproves it. That is the safeguard thrown around it by the language I put into the bill," and certified to the Secretary of the Interior for approval, and when approved by him to be paid; and the sum of $21,500, or so much thereof as may be necessary "-I was careful to have that in-" is hereby appropriated out of said funds for said purposes.”

The CHAIRMAN. Then you do not agree with other witnesses who maintain that Mr. Ballinger's efforts have been detrimental?

Mr. DAVIS. I certainly do not; and of my own personal knowledge I know they have always been just the reverse.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you know when you drew this bill that Mr. Ballinger had already been compensated nearly to the extent of $10,000?

Mr. DAVIS. I knew he had been compensated to a certain extent. The CHAIRMAN. It has been developed in the testimony that during this period that he has been making efforts for the Chippewa Indians that he has received slightly over $9,000 for services and something over $800 for expenses. Mr. DAVIS. I do not know the exact amount that he has been compensated. The CHAIRMAN. The question has also been raised that the account having been settled by an appropriation made from year to year, that he can not come in now with a bill for services that have already been accounted for.

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman, that is why all these things were put in here. It has to have the approval not only of the general council but of the Secretary of the Interior, and let him decide it then and there whether he has been paid too much or too little.

The CHAIRMAN. That is exactly what I see in this investigation up to the present moment. All these extraneous things that they are bringing in here do not seem to count for much with me. It is simply a question of whether Mr. Ballinger has been compensated sufficiently for the work that he has done. If he has not, then he ought to be compensated. It was proved here by the assistant commissioner that he did not think that Mr. Ballinger had gotten all that he was entitled to.

Mr. DAVIS. Let the Secretary of the Interior decide that when that is presented to him, and if we trust our Secretary of the Interior we can refer it to him, and then if with all the facts before him he turns it down, all right.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Davis, as a legislator here for many years you realize that nothing like this has been done before.

Mr. DAVIS. I do not know, of my own personal knowledge, that it has been done before.

The CHAIRMAN. If we legislate on a matter of this sort, unless we have absolute grounds for it, it is going to open up the gates.

Mr. DAVIS. I appreciate that.

The CHAIRMAN. You also realize that if we do pass it, it has got to go down to the Committee on Appropriations?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It has to pass over a series of hurdles before he finally gets the money.

Mr. DAVIS. Exactly. I do not think anything this committee does will have any effect of robbing anybody of a single dollar, because of the aftermath that has to follow it. An investigation has to follow. This simply authorizes the Secretary of the Interior if he deems proper to make a recommendation. The CHAIRMAN. Practically the same as anv other claim bill.

Mr. DAVIS. Exactly. I know Mr. Ballinger has instituted proceedings and tried to get a lot of these claims of the Indians referred to the Court of Claims. He has spent a large amount of time on these things. That is proper, Mr. Chairman. It is legal and it should be done. I think that it is universally a proper thing. I know that he has devoted months and years of his time along these lines and in every instance where he has taken these things before the courts the result has been to save the Chippewa Indians from being robbed out of their annuities, etc. I know I have heard from other Members of Congress, from Mr. Ellsworth and others, that he has devoted much time to that work. They speak that way of Mr. Ballinger. I can not tell you the details. But the Secretary of the Interior after this bill has been passed can thoroughly investigate.

The CHAIRMAN. There is one thing that has seemed unusual to me while these hearings have been going on. There are two or three Congressmen representing these districts, and so far only one of them has appeared here, Mr. Steenerson, in opposition to the bill. It would seem that the other two men should come here and give us their advice and counsel with regard to the matter.

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Chairman, I do not care to go into that phase of it. I am very well acquainted with Mr. Steenerson and I do not care to discuss it. I have my private ideas and reasons for this, being one of the oldest residents in Minnesota. I do not care to go into that at all.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Steenerson seems to base his argument wholly upon the ground that whatever Ballinger has attempted to do for the so-called council, it has been contrary to the wishes and interests of the Red Lakes.

Mr. DAVIS. The Red Lake Reservation is in his district, is it not? The CHAIRMAN. It would seem that his argument against Ballinger receiving further compensation was based upon that fact more than any other.

Mr. Davis. I do not care to discuss Mr. Steenerson. I have an impression in my mind that amounts to a conviction, but I do not care to say anything more about that phase.

Mr. SEARS. Following our usual custom, not indicating what our final report will be, it strikes me in reading this bill that we do not get anywhere. I think we have had this bill up ever since I have been on the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. No.

Mr. SEARS. I may be in error, but I thought Mr. Hastings discussed it. The CHAIRMAN. The question of Ballinger's fee does not come up every time there is an appropriation to be made.

Mr. SEARS. My point is that whatever the committee's report might be, this authorization is that "the sum of $21.500, or so much thereof as may be necessary, is hereby appropriated out of said funds for said purpose." Mr. Davis has said that he does not know how much Mr. Ballinger claims.

The CHAIRMAN. Ballinger claims the $21,500.

Mr. SEARS. Suppose he claims $50,000 afterwards, and that he has overlooked some of the committees he has been before in some of the years. We have not settled anything. Would it not be well to put an amendment to this bill that whatever amount the Secretary agrees upon shall be in final and full settlement of any claims Mr. Ballinger may have? Then we are though with it.

Mr. DAVIS. I certainly would not object.

Mr. SEARS. I do not mean by that that I would report for or against the bill, but it does seem to me that should be put in there.

Mr. DAVIS. I approve of that very heartily.

Mr. SEARS. Mr. Davis suggested that what the Secretary of the Interior decided would be binding.

The CHAIRMAN. This hearing is for the purpose of determining whether we will consider the bill. I thank you for the suggestion just the same.

Mr. SEARS. You might overlook it when the bill comes up.

Mr. DAVIS. I do not know the details. Mr. Ballinger has never told me what the claim is out of this sum. The amount was suggested. I understand you are going to leave it to somebody to investigate, leave the amount of the claim to the Secretary of the Interior. If you will put a limitation on it that it shall be in full settlement it will please me very much.

The CHAIRMAN. We will see that something of that sort is put on before the bill gets out of the committee.

Mr. DAVIS. Gentlemen, I can not go into the details of this matter, because I am not familiar with all of them. The idea I had was to leave it to somebody to investigate and find out before paying him one dollar more than he is entitled to.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Davis.

Mr. DAVIS. I am very much obliged to you.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anybody here that desires to be heard further on this matter before Mr. Ballinger has a short period to rebut such testimony as has been put in. You did not finish, Mr. Coffey?

STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES I. COFFEY,

Mr. COFFEY. I had not finished.

The CHAIRMAN. How much time will you want? We must close this hearing this morning.

Mr. COFFEY. I will make it as short as possible.

The CHAIRMAN. You may have 15 minutes. If you have a brief that you wish to place before the committee, it may be put in.

Mr. COFFEY. For the information that the chairman requested Wednesday as to the time that the Indian Office decided not to recognize the general council, that was done on May 12.

The CHAIRMAN. Of the past year?

Mr. COFFEY. The past year; yes. I will submit that for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. If there is no objection, it may go in.

(The letter referred to is as follows:)

Mr. P. R. WADSWORTH,

Supervisor in Charge, White Earth Agency.

MAY 12, 1921.

MY DEAR MR. WADSWORTH: Referring to your letter of March 17, with reference to the method of selecting delegates from the various bands and districts of the White Earth Reservation to attend the general council of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota, you are advised that in view of the fact that the Chippewa Indians are divided as to the so-called general council and as Congress eliminated the appropriation for expenses, etc., of the general council from the Indian appropriation act for the next fiscal year, it is believed best that no recognition should be accorded either faction as a general council, and that any of the Indians may be heard, either singly or in groups, without recognition as having the right to speak for the tribe as officers of a general council.

In view thereof you are instructed to take no action in the matter of holding local councils or the election of delegates to local councils or a general council. There is no objection to your being present and taking notes and making such reports thereof to this office as you deem proper, simply as a record of a meeting of the Indians.

Sincerely, yours,

CHAS. H. BURKE, Commissioner.

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