Miss BORCHARDT. For one-half of the amount; yes, sir, for the reasons stated.

Senator DONNELL. As to $50,000,000 under title II, it is not necessary for any State to establish any need whatsover. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. The need is apparent in figures which must be obtained from the Treasury Department.

Senator DONNELL. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct, if the need is shown by the objective data furnished by the Treasury Department.

Senator CHAVEZ. May I interrupt right there?

Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. As I understand, the idea is that even in the rich States that might not, as a whole, be in need, they will find themselves in need as far as individuals are concerned.

Senator DONNELL. That may well be true.

Senator CHAVEZ. I think that is the point the witness is trying to make.

Senator DONNELL. Yes; but the point I am making is that each State, as it walks up for its share of the $50,000,000, has to show only one thing, and that is the number of people who live in it. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct, for getting funds for student aid. The individual student must show need and there are many poor students in rich States.

Senator SMITH. May I ask this question? Section 301 does not seem to me to apply to individuals at all. Section 301 applies to expenditures for educational facilities and services, such as transportation for educational purposes, library facilities, textbooks, and other reading materials, visual aids, and so forth. That is the $100,000,000.

Title IV is the one that applies to needy students; so, if I may add a suggestion, the 50 percent goes to these States irrespective of the need of special students. It goes on the basis of population to do these things. That is right, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct, in part, but I respectfully submit, sir, that the reason for that formula is that the need of the poor child in a rich State is considered, in considering the population of the State.

For example, the child from the poor family does not have those medical services which are to be furnished. The child from the poor family does not have the transportation money. The child from the poor family is handicapped in the purchase of textbooks whether he be in a public or nonpublic school. Tragically enough, even in our public schools, we in the labor movement have had a terrific fight to get free textbooks for children. Those are the factors we considered in relation to individual needs in preparing this bill.

Senator DONNELL. Miss Borchardt, referring to title IV, that is the title under which $150,000,000 is authorized to be appropriated annually.

Miss BORCHARDT. That is true, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. Under section 402, the language is as follows: The funds authorized to be appropriated under section 401 of this Actthat is the $150,000,000?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is right.

Senator DONNELL (reading):

shall be allocated among the several States on the basis of the total number of persons in each of such States between the ages of 14 and 20, inclusive, as estimated by the Bureau of the Census.

That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct. You are reading the bill correctly, sir.

Senator DONNELL. In other words, in that case also, as it states, imagine them in a procession coming up for their share of the $150,000,000, and as each State comes up it is only necessary for them to produce a certificate of one fact, namely, the number of persons between the ages of 14 and 20. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct, Senator; but you fail to give consideration to the number of poor people in each rich State, in that procession of States, to which you refer. During the depression, and since then, too, the figures in all reports of any value show that the need of many individuals in many rich States is very great. Hence the State need only show its population to show need, for the figures showing need of individuals in the State are implicit in the record.

Senator DONNELL. Then as to this $200,000,000 under this bill, namely, $50,000,000 under title III and $150,000,000 under title IV, the only information which the State is required to show in order to get its prorata part is in the case of $50,000,000, what its total population is as estimated by the Bureau of the Census and as to the $150,000,000, the total number of persons in that State between the ages of 14 and 20 as estimated by the Bureau of the Census. That is true, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is true because for title IV and for part of title III the figures are clear as to the need of persons in the State. Those figures in the States show the need.

Senator DONNELL. Miss Borchardt, I want to express my realization of the work you have done undoubtedly in preparation of your testimony of yesterday.

Miss BORCHARDT. Thank you, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. You referred to the Ordinance of 1785 concerning the Northwest Territory, did you not?

Miss BORCHARDT. Yes, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. And you pointed out, as I recall your testimony, that under the provision of the ordinance of 1785, lot 16, or I should say section 16, in each township——

Miss BORCHARDT (interposing). No. I beg your pardon, that is right, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. Is that right?

Miss BORCHARDT. Yes. I thought you were speaking of lot 29.

Senator DONNELL. I am coming to that in a minute.

That lot 16 was to go for schools and lot 29 for religion.

Miss BORCHARDT. That provision was in the ordinance of 1787 set up for the government of the Northwest Territory. The provision in article III referred to the lot 29 provision. That is article II of the ordinance of 1787.

Senator DONNELL. I am coming back to that in a minute.

I have some of these documents here that I wanted to ask you about. I do not want to be tedious, but I regard this a matter of considerable importance, enough to go back into these matters, and if the members will bear with me, I will try to be as rapid as I can, yet try to cover the matter with reasonable thoroughness.

Miss BORCHARDT. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. Miss Borchardt, you are familiar with the book that has been referred to in testimony entitled "Public Education in the United States," by Cubberley.

Miss BORCHARDT. I am familiar with it.

Senator DONNELL. "Public Education in the United States" was written by Ellwood P. Cubberley, dean emeritus, School of Education, Leland-Stanford Junior University. That is correct, is it not? Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct.

Senator DONNELL. And his book has been printed in two editions, one of 1934 and one of 1919?

Miss BORCHARDT. Senator, we used it in one of my classes and our instructor differed with some of the interpretations of Dr. Cubberly. Senator DONNELL. At any rate, you are familiar with it?

Miss BORCHARDT. Yes; familiar with it.

Senator DONNELL. I call your attention to this sentence at page 41 of this book in the chapter on General Character of the Colonial Schools:

The most prominent characteristic of all the early Colonial schooling was the predominance of the religious purpose in instruction.

You agree with that, do you?

Miss BORCHARDT. Yes, sir. In fact, Senator, I think I referred to the fact that in the colonial period we had practically a theocrasy in New England.

Senator DONNELL. I believe you did.

At page 230, I call your attention to this sentence:

The church, with us, it will be remembered, was from the earliest colonial times in possession of the education of the young.

You recall that, do you?

Miss BORCHARDT. Not "completely," unless the "completely" is delimited. For example, in Massachusetts, in the Body of Liberties, very early in that colony's history there is proof that a certain degree of dissension grew over the close tie of state and church. The minister was prohibited from conducting the class. That was when the split began to assert itself quite early in our history. The colonists did. not want a state church and no good American citizen wants that today.

Senator DONNELL. At any rate, I have that correctly?

Miss BORCHARDT. The quotation is correct.

Senator DONNELL. I call your attention to this language on page 73 which I think bears out your point as to the theocratic nature of education to a certain extent in New England:

As we have seen, each little New England town was originally established as a religious republic, with the church in complete control.

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct.

Senator DONNELL. And also with the statement on page 73:

As has been stated earlier, the school everywhere in America arose as a child of the church.

Do

you think that is a correct statement?

Miss BORCHARDT. No; I do not think that is entirely correct; not everywhere.

Senator DONNELL. At any rate, you agree that the quotation was read correctly?

Miss BORCHARDT. Yes; you have read the quotation correctly, but I do not agree to the fact.

Senator DONNELL. I call your attention also to this language appearing next in Professor Cubberley's book, on page 73, where he says:

In the Colonies, where the parochial-school conception of education became the prevailing type, the school remained under church control until after the founding of our National Government. In New England, however, and the New England evolution in time became the prevailing American practice, the school passed through a very interesting development during colonial times from a church into a state school.

That is a correct quotation, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. That is correctly read by you.

Senator DONNELL. Now, we get to the ordinance of 1785 and 1787. Those documents refer to the Northwest Territory, do they not? Miss BORCHARDT. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. As to the ordinance of 1785, I refer now to the book by Prof. Fletcher Harper Swift, Ph. D., professor of education at the University of Minnesota, and ask if you are familiar with his work?

Miss BORCHARDT. No; I am not.

Senator DONNELL. It is entitled "Public Prominent Common School Funds in the United States, 1795-1905."

I hesitate to attempt to give my own construction of this, but it is rather lengthy, and I will endeavor to give it as fairly as I can.

As I understand this, and if there is any dispute as to the meaning of it I will be glad to read the exact language. As I understand it, back in 1785 there was certain land later known as the Northwest Territory which it was desired by the Congress to sell and by the company known as the Ohio Co. to buy. That is right, is it not? Miss BORCHARDT. That is correct.

Senator DONNELL. And negotiations were entered into with respect to this land. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. May I say this, Senator: It has been some time since I really analyzed these documents. I can give you the exact citations of the two statutes I cited yesterday, but it has been some time since I had a course in political science that developed that whole theory.

Senator DONNELL. At any rate, I will endeavor to give it fairly.

Miss BORCHARDT. I do not have them here, but I shall be glad to insert in the record the exact citations from the two ordinances to which I referred, if that be desired.

Senator DONNELL. Now, on May 20, 1785-and I read now from this book of Professor Swift's:

On May 20, 1785, Congress adopted an ordinance which provided the manner of survey and of sale of the western lands.

I will read also from page 45 of the same book:

The adoption by Congress of the plan contained in the ordinance of 1785 cut short the dreams of the company headed by Colonel Pickering and Rufus Putnam. Nevertheless, Putnam and Benjamin Tupper organized a new company known

as the Ohio Company, with purposes quite similar to those of the old New England Company.

Without reading all of this, there were negotiations between this Ohio Co. and Congress as to what should be the terms of the sale to the Ohio Co. That is right, is it not?

And in that connection I will read this:

The Ohio Company originally asked for the following reservations, i. e., gifts of land from Congress: One lot in each township in the support of schools, one for the ministry, four townships for the support of an institution of higher learning. Congress objected to these demands and did not come to term until Dr. Cutler submitted an ultimatum. In this he repeated the original demands of the Ohio Company, save that he now asked for two instead of four townships for an institution of higher education. Cutler's threat to buy lands of some individual State, added to Congress' pressing need for money, resulted in the passage of an ordinance which authorized the Board of Treasury to contract for the sale of lands on the terms and with the reservations demanded by the company.

Miss Borchardt, it was due to these demands of the company that Congress made these various provisions, as I understand it. That is correct, is it not?

Miss BORCHARDT. Senator, I have no authority at hand on which I can base an answer. I am sure your colleague, the eminent gentleman from Princeton, could give me a very good bibliography to study on that, but I am not in possession at the present time of any information except what the ordinance contained, and it is to the fact what the ordinance contains, to which I have here testified.

Senator CHAVEZ. Does that not go to the question of how it was brought about, what motives brought it about, or what arguments were used which were only incidental to the proposition?

Senator DONNELL. I do not agree with that.

Senator CHAVEZ. Even to this particular moment, we have demands by the service boards, we have demands by the labor boards, but the responsibility and the fact of what is done is in Congress. Is that not correct, Senator?

Senator DONNELL. I think, however, it becomes of great importance here in determining whether or not Congress was here voluntarily establishing a policy with respect to the support of a religion. I think the intent of Congress, the motive of Congress, the fact it was a pressing need for money and a bargain was being made, is of the greatest importance.

Senator CHAVEZ. There is no question about the pressing need for money, because anyone studying history, especially of the Northwest territory, knows that at the time the Northwest territory was developed, in the development, the evolution of the political and social matters affecting the Northwest territory, there was a demand for money.

Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. We could not pay our soldiers. We could not pay the French. Jefferson was worried about it, and the Northwest territory, being a part of Virginia, kept insisting that something be done in order to meet those demands.

Senator DONNELL. I call your attention to this, Miss Borchardt. You referred yesterday to certain language in the ordinance of 1785, reading as follows, and I quote article III:

Religion, morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.