Mr. GOOGE. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. Now, Mr. Googe, it was mentioned by Dr. Reeves, as I remember it, yesterday that the commission of which he is a member, the majority of that commission, was opposed, and he personally is opposed, to permitting any of the $300,000,000 covered by title II to go to private schools. You heard his testimony to that effect, did you not?

Mr. GOOGE. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Now, were you present when the discussion occurred out of which grew the incorporation in this title II of the provision by which nonpublic schools may share in the proceeds of title II? Mr. GOOGE. No; I am not a member of that commission.

Senator DONNELL. So you do not know, from personal knowledge, who determined that the majority of this commission should be overruled and that this bill should contain a provision that the majority of the commission of teachers did not favor? You do not know who it was?

Mr. GOOGE. May I say this

Senator DONNELL. Do you know? Please answer my question.

Mr. GOOGE. No; I do not know; but I want to emphasize this factthis bill is not a bill from this commission. This bill is the American Federation of Labor's bill.

Senator DONNELL. Yes; I understand that.

Senator CHAVEZ. Whatever it is, the bill ought to be defined as it is written.

Mr. GOOGE. Sure.

Senator CHAVEZ. No matter whether it belongs to the teachers that developed it or the American Federation of Labor.

Senator DONNELL. I think, though, if the Senator will permit me, we are entitled to inquire into the reason why there has been a change here from what the teachers thought was proper. As I regard it, is is of the greatest importance to know why the sentiment of the majority of the teachers commission was overruled by the American Federation of Labor.

Mr. GOOGE. Senator, they were not overruled. In the first place, this bill was introduced by action of the convention, with the unanimous approval of the executive council of the American Federation of Labor.

Senator DONNELL. Was this bill drawn when the American Federation of Labor annual convention at New Orleans occurred in November 1944?

Mr. GOOGE. No; it was not; it was drawn before this meeting which was held that Dr. Reeves testified regarding to and introduced here in this hearing since.

Senator DONNELL. The American Federation of Labor, as I understand it, favors the bill S. 717.

Mr. GOOGE. That is right.

Senator DONNELL. The point I am trying to get at is, what is the reason why the views of these gentlemen whom Dr. Reeves himself represents and whose view he takes, namely, that this bill should not provide under title II any funds for nonpublic schools, as to why that action was not incorporated in the bill but instead an absolutely contrary action was incorporated in the bill? If you do not have

that information, I will not push you any further, but I will ask Dr. Reeves when he comes back on the stand.

Mr. GOOGE. You should certainly ask those who are present and those whose minds brought about the action, because I could not possibly assume to speak for the mental actions of a group of school teachers and tell you why they departed from the traditional position of labor.

Senator DONNELL. I think we might ask Dr. Reeves what he thinks about that.

Mr. GOOGE. All right.

Senator DONNELL. Now, Mr. Googe, one or two other questions. Would you be kind enough to turn to section 303 of the bill? The first sentence of its reads this way:

The funds paid to a State or to a trustee appointed pursuant to section 2 (d) from the funds authorized to be appropriated under section 301 of this Act shall be available for disbursement by the State authority or by such trustee to any educational agency in such State, whether public or nonpublic.

Now, is there anything in the bill that you know of that in any sense determines the basis on which the State authority shall determine which educational agencies or agency shall receive these funds? As I read it, this gives the State authority absolute power— the sentence I read to turn these funds over to any educational agency, apparently even one, if it wanted to.

Now, is there any provision in this act that you know of that safeguards the use of the money so the State authority will make a fair and equitable distribution of the money among the various educational agencies rather than to restrict the number on a possibly unjust and unwise basis? Do you know of any such provision, and could you tell me what it is if you know?

Mr. GOOGE. Frankly, I am not an expert, and I do not know, but I assume, generally speaking, from my contact with the State educational authorities, the minority groups would see that they get their share, and the State would administer equitably the fund so it would go to all who were justly entitled to it under the Federal appropriation.

Senator DONNELL. There is one other question as to section 2 (d), on page 5, or would you prefer Dr. Reeves to answer that?

Mr. GOOGE. I would much prefer to have Dr. Reeves answer that. Senator DONNELL. There was a question I wanted to ask you on what I thought a rather important phase of the bill. I will leave it to Dr. Reeves.

There is one other question, and that is this: This Federation of Teachers-does it pay dues, or do its members pay dues, to the American Federation of Labor?

Mr. GOOGE. Senator, we have 108 international unions that have charters from the American Federation of Labor.

Senator DONNELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. GOOGE. They are autonomous national organizations, and they charter local unions. Out of the per capita tax that the local unions pay on their members to the national organization, the national organization in turn pays 12 cents per month per capita tax to the American Federation of Labor. The American Federation of Teachers pay them 112 cents per month per member, the same as the car

penters or machinists or any other union in the American Federation. of Labor.

Senator DONNELL. You mentioned this morning under the provisions of one of these sections 75 percent of the funds provided, I believe, in title II, shall go to teachers for payment of salaries. That is correct, is it not?

Mr. GOOGE. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. You made a rather emphatic point that that was a very great advantage, in your judgment, of this bill. Is that correct?

Mr. GOOGE. Yes. It earmarks that much of the funds to supplement teachers' salaries and pay additional teachers in the public schools.

Senator DONNELL. May I ask you this-and I hope you do not take offense at this; we are entitled to find out your thought on it, however-if you succeed in securing the passage of this bill, which guarantees 75 percent of this $300,000,000 a year to go to teachers for salaries, does that fact, in your judgment, tend to make the teachers more favorable toward the American Federation of Labor than if that increase in their salaries had not occurred, and would it also tend for more persons to join this affiliate, the American Federation of Teachers, on the argument that the American Federation of Teachers had extended that benefit, or extended considerable benefit, to your teachers? Have those thoughts at all entered into the preparation of this provision that at least 75 percent of the $300,000,000 must go to the teachers for payment of salaries?

Mr. GOOGE. Senator, I think the testimony here before the committee answers that question very effectively. If political expediency were the purpose, if it had one iota of influence on the action of the American Federation of Labor, we would be in here revising this bill to meet the wishes of this Commission. But if you ask if teachers, knowing that the American Federation of Teachers and the American Federation of Labor alone fought for the protection of the rights of the classroom teacher, should knowing this, join the A. F. of L., the answer is that if they are sane and wise that's what they will do. But seeking aid for all children had no political angle, I can assure you. Senator DONNELL. Then that did not enter into it?

Mr. GOOGE. It had no bearing on it whatsoever. It is the need of the child, our workingmen's children, that is the purpose of the bill, and it is the major interest that the American Federation of Labor has. But we shall protect the teacher's interests.

Senator CHAVEZ. At the same time, you would like to have the teachers, whether they are affiliated with the American Federation of Labor or not, or in an individual capacity, get a living wage?

Mr. GOOGE. Yes. I may add this, too-that where the teachers are affiliated with the American Federation of Labor, in the years past we have succeeded, by pressure of the labor movement in the local community, to increase the teachers' salaries tremendously. In Atlanta, Ga., for two decades all the public school teachers have been members of the American Federation of Labor, active in our central body, and we have a much higher salary standard there than in any other section of the State, where the teachers are not in the union.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Googe, bearing in mind your mentioning of the fact that Dr. Reeves is much more familiar with the details of the bill, and also the very compelling fact that there are two bells that have just rung for us to appear on the Senate floor, I will adjourn any further questioning and ask Dr. Reeves those questions.

Mr. GOOGE. Thank you, Senator; I am sure he will be glad to supply the information.

Senator WALSH. We will meet again at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p. m., the committee recessed to 10 a. m., of the following day, Friday, April 13, 1945.)

FEDERAL AID FOR EDUCATION

THURSDAY, APRIL 19, 1945

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in room 424-B, Senate Office Building, Senator Elbert D. Thomas presiding.

Present: Senators Thomas, Ellender, Johnston, Taft, Morse, Aiken, Smith, and Donnell.

Senator THOMAS. Dr. Reeves, will you state what you want to appear in the record about yourself, please?

STATEMENT OF DR. FLOYD W. REEVES-Resumed

Dr. REEVES. I am Floyd W. Reeves. I am professor of administration and director of the rural education project of the University of Chicago; and, as I testified earlier, I am appearing here for the Commission on Educational Reconstruction of the American Federation of Teachers, and I am representing that commission in expressing its attitude on S. 717. I am, however, serving in a dual capacity, in that I am also assisting the American Federation of Labor in connection with the technical interpretation of the provisions of this bill.

I consider it an honor that the American Federation of Labor, knowing in advance that there is one provision in title II of the bill with which our commission and I do not agree, still had enough confidence in me to ask me to assist before this committee in the technical interpretation of the bill. In this rather difficult position I shall make every effort to do an honest job.

Both the American Youth Commission and President Roosevelt's Advisory Committee on Education recommended Federal aid for services to children of the type included under title III of this bill. Both recommended not only that special provision be made for such services, but also that special provision be made for a student-aid program of the type set forth in title IV. I should like to quote a few brief extracts from the report of the President's Advisory Committee on Education relative to special services of the type included in title III.

After presenting a list of 12 activities and services that should be recognized as properly within the scope of elementary and secondary schools, the President's Advisory Committee said:

the last three items of this list require some special comment, since the Committee believes that if funds are used for these purposes they should