was a tremendous success, Mr. Chairman, a tremendous success in my opinion.

The National Rifle Association was invited to appear and participate-it did, and I served on a panel where I took one side of the issue and the NRA took the other side, and I am pleased to report that I think we won, although no votes were taken; but, I can tell you that the USCM will continue to lobby its position insofar as I know it, because its job is to lobby in favor of the positions that the conference has taken.

That handgun control project has the effect of coordinating nationally for the mayors, who represent 80 percent of the people in this country, information that is critically important to you and to all Members of Congress as you reach your decisions on this issue. On a State level, more action by the States can better help us to implement any laws that Congress will pass as well as encourage States to do the very same thing.

One peculiarity here-I would like to report one peculiarity here, we would like to act in Atlanta I believe and did so on a Saturday night special measure that was introduced about 2 or 3 years ago. However, the supreme court of Georgia now says the State has pre-empted this area and therefore we cannot even act in the area of handgun legislation, which means that we cannot act and the State of Georgia won't act, and that is a heck of a position for us to be in, so I am asking Congress please do act.

Mr. CONYERS. That is an interesting dilemma. It is certainly different from most States that I've examinated on this problem. I wouldn't want to recommend that the city of Atlanta challenge the decision of the august body of the supreme court of Georgia but I am sure you have examined the legal and constitutional ramifications of that question.

What about the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration? Have they been able to fund any State or local projects that deal with gun control education or other questions of this nature and would it be appropriate that they do so?

Mayor JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, on the first question: "Have they been able to fund these organizations," that might be in favor of handgun control or official governmental organizations that can disseminate information out, facts about, data about handguns; I can only plead ignorance, I am not aware this has happened. It may have happened. If it has not happened, it ought to happen. It ought to happen. I think LEAA should take a very firm position in favor of funding official agencies and maybe through official agencies to other citizen organizations which I advocate, or maybe even direct the citizen organizations, which would have to be considered, projects which would seek to educate the people on the question of handguns -what they do, how they affect our society, and so forth. If LEAA is not doing that, then I think LEAA is dropping the ball.

Mr. CONYERS. The question might be to what extent they are doing it? I am sure somewhere along the line out of almost a billion dollars, that there may be some funds going toward it but I think it is probably on a very small scale, a very small level.

Could I finally conclude with a question that has repeatedly come up in connection with these hearings and that is the emphasis on focusing our efforts upon the criminal who uses a handgun in the perpetuation of a crime. Do you have any evidence, or has there been any research conducted in your city or State, relative to the effectiveness of mandatory sentencing for those who have used a handgun in the commission of a felony?

Mayor JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, the answer to that question I think is no. To my knowledge, that kind of research has not gone on in the State. If it has gone on, I just don't know about it. I suspect that it has not gone on, but I do believe the handgun control project of the U.S. Conference of Mayors is involved in researching whether or not there is a nexus between a reduction in crime, handgun related violent crime and, on the other hand, mandatory minimum sentencing.

I would like to give you my personal opinion, however. The Wayne County prosecuting attorney testified here before a hearing we had on the control of handguns, sponsored by this region of the National Conference of Democratic Mayors, on which I serve as regional coordinator for nine Southern States. I don't recall his name now, and he said among other things, one of the things I agreed with, although we disagreed on many other points, was that

Mr. CONYERS. Mr. Čahalan.

Mayor JACKSON. That's right-Cahalan-was that it is not always the severity of a crime but it is very often the certainty of the punishment. Not often the severity of the punishment, but very often the certainty of it with which I agree, especially under the present circumstance in this country. Those circumstances show the vast majority of people who are indicted for crimes don't get convicted, are not punished for crimes.

Now we are watching with a great deal of interest the Commonwealth of Massachusetts with its 1-year minimum mandatory sentence for violating the handgun control law in that State. I suspect it is going to have a tremendously favorable impact from the point of view of discouraging the use of handguns if you know that if you get convicted, not only for a crime involving a handgun but for violating the law which prohibits maybe handguns under certain situations, you will-emphasis on the word "will"-spend a year in jail and as they advertise on television in Massachusetts "and no one can get you out." Now, I don't know whether this is a liberal or conservative or moderate position, in fact, I don't give a hoot, but I'll tell you this, Mr. Chairman, if minimum mandatory sentences will work, especially in this area, I am for it. Point No. 2 though, we look at the crime level and as important as that is, there is the other problem, 80 percent of the homicides are not committed in the course of a crime, otherwise being prosecuted and are not between strangers but are among relatives and friends in somebody's home in the heat of passion. If we attach those two problems, I think we will have a handle on it. The crime rate, of course, is a major concern. It is of great concern as well that we find a way to stop the rampaging homicide among friends and neighbors in this country and the control of

handguns, I suggest to you, will do that in large measure, if not entirely.

Mr. CONYERS. Well, I am very impressed with your knowledge and your dedication to the subject and I, with some reluctance, close the questioning.

I know, however, that not only within your city and State, but across the Nation, you have been signal in your unrelenting efforts to first of all bring a fair, unemotional understanding of a subject that is emotional by its nature. I think the entire country is indebted to the very distiguished mayor of Atlanta who has honored us with his testimony before the subcommittee today.

Mayor JACKSON. Thank you, Congressman. Let me in behalf of the people of Atlanta commend you for your leadership on this issue in the Congress. There are many who have had faint hearts on this issue because of what they perceive attitudes politically to be. There are many people who fear the electorate if they take a position, and persons in elected positions are officials-the fact that you have stood up for this Nation on this issue on a matter which I think is going to go down in the history books as one of the most important movements in Congress, the social issue has that magnitude. Your leadership has that foresight, and I want to thank channel 30, WETV, for giving us a chance to let other people know about this, but I commend you, Congresman John Conyers, for being a leader on as historical an issue and as profound an issue as this. This is not the first time you have done it, but on this issue, believe me, all of us are proud of what you are doing and back you all the way.

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you very much. It's an idea whose time has come. I think that more and more Members of the Congress, Mr. Mayor, are realizing that their political life doesn't hang in the balance as many have analyzed. As a matter of fact, some of my colleagues have examined what were held up as horrible political examples of what happened to people in elective office who favored strict controls. And, you know, they have begun to realize that some candidates might have lost their election for reasons that had nothing whatever to do with the position they took on this subject. I think you are right, quite correct.

Mayor JACKSON. I hear that out of 24 or thereabout Congressmen that took strong positions in favor of the control of handguns, about 22 were reelected. I can't verify those figures but I hope that is correct.

Mr. CONYERS. Thank you, Mayor Jackson and thank you, Mrs. Morris, for joining us.

The next witnesses will be representatives from the State of Georgia Legislature, Hon. Robert Bell, the distinguished senator; and also Hon. Billy McKinney, from the house of representatives from the State of Georgia.

Welcome, legislators. We are delighted you could join us today. We have prepared statements from both of you which indicates your deep concern about this matter.

What I propose to do is to reprint your statements in the record at this point. That will free you to make whatever comments you wish over and above the statements already in hand.

[The prepared statement of Hon. Robert H. Bell follows:]

BIOGRAPHY OF SENATOR ROBERT H. BELL, 5TH DISTRICT-DE KALB

COUNTY, GA.

Personal: Born De Kalb County; educated in De Kalb County and Atlanta public school system; attended Erskine College, due West, South Carolina; graduated Georgia State University, 1965. Holds B.B.A. degree in Marketing. Family: Married with two daughters.

Business background: Manufacturer's Representative, President, R. H. Bell & Company; Vice President, Wing-Bell Corporation.

Veteran: 2 years U.S. Army with overseas duty. Discharged as Platoon Sergeant, Infantry.

Civic activities: Senator Bell has been an active citizen in his community having served as an officer or member in various community and civic clubs: North Druid Woods Civic Association; Henderson Mill Civic Club; Henderson Mill P.T.A.; Atlanta Junior Chamber of Commerce; Atlanta Jaycees, Toastmasters Club.

Legislative history: Senator Bell is completing his second term in the Senate after having served two terms in the Georgia House of Representatives. His primary interest has been in tax reform, though he has recently gained attention as an advocate of no-nonsense law enforcement.

In 1974 Senator Bell served as chairman of the Urban Area Law Enforcement Study Committee. His committee held hearings all over the state and was successful in seeing many of its recommendations enacted into law in the 1975 session.

Senator Bell serves as chairman of the Subcommittee on Law Enforcement of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He also serves on the following Senate Committees: County and Urban Affairs; Higher Education.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT H. BELL, STATE SENATOR, GEORGIA

Mr. Chairman and distinguished members of the House Subcommittee on Crime. My name is Robert H. Bell. I am a State Senator, for the 5th District of Georgia, and I reside in De Kalb County, a suburb of Atlanta. In the Senate, cone of my responsibilities is serving as Chairman of the Judiciary Committee's Sub Committee on Law Enforcement. Since the control and reduction of crime is of major interest to our Committee, we commend you for your concern, and welcome you to Georgia.

To understand the dimensions of crime in our state, one has only to look at the daily newspapers. Murder has become so common-place in this city, that it only receives a passing mention in the press. Rape has become so widespread that it is either embarrassing or boring to the media, for they only give it minor attention. Armed robbery, robbery, burglary and theft are so rampant that we have ceased talking about an absolute reduction in themnow we talk about just reducing the percentage of growth.

Stated simply Mr. Chairman, if the fight against crime can be characterized in military terms, then the Government side is losing the war. Unfortunately, both the criminal element in our society, as well as our law abiding citizens are aware of these defeats. The criminal is emboldened to commit more crimes. The law abiding citizen is discouraged and often fearful. Testimony taken by my Committee last summer as we held hearings all over the state convinced me the public has lost confidence in the ability of Government to protect the private citizen from criminal attack.

It is within this context Mr. Chairman-an exploding crime rate and a loss of confidence that I must view efforts at gun control legislation. Citizens of Georgia, all over this state, have told me they own weapons to protect themselves and their families, in their own homes. They, and I, view any effort which limits the freedom to possess guns as a limit upon their freedom to defend themselves. Thus, they see a paradox which makes no sense. The Government can not defend them, and is now moving to prevent them from defending themselves.

Aside from disarming the law abiding public, I see no other practical effect of gun control legislation. Certainly, I do not see how it will in any way disarm the criminal. We have laws on our books today sufficient to remove hand guns from the commission of crimes if those laws were honored, or sufficiently enforced.

At this very moment, a criminal in Georgia, using a pistol in the commission of a crime, breaks three laws.

A. He breaks the law applicable to that particular crime itself.

B. He breaks the law that prohibits anyone in Georgia from carrying a pistol without a permit.

C. He breaks the law which prohibits anyone, other than a peace officer, from carrying a concealed weapon.

What miraculous penalties would be applied under a new law that will inhibit a criminal who has no fear of breaking these laws already? I am afraid Mr. Chairman that gun control legislation is a simplistic solution to a most complicated problem.

The root problem Mr. Chairman is Crime. And no one seems to know, really know, what makes a person resort to crime. All we seem to know is there exists a large, and growing, element in our society that operates on the theory "what is yours is mine, if I can take it". That theory is not limited to any section of our Nation, nor any ethnic or economic group in our society. Nothing is safe unless it is nailed down or under constant surveillance. That applies to a sack lunch in the schools of the wealthiest neighborhoods, the pittance of cash in the poorest ghetto home, or the merchandise on any retailers counter.

What is needed to combat crime is a massive, united effort, by all the responsible elements of our society.

In the misuse of hand guns, I suggest this Committee explore the possibility of encouraging a stricter enforcement of our present laws. This is especially true of those laws which prohibit the carrying of concealed weapons, and the carrying of a pistol without a permit. If these laws were strictly enforced, two purposes would be accomplished.

1. It would reduce the incidence of crime where pistols are used, because the law breaker himself would be the one who is apprehended.

2. It would leave unmolested the rights of private citizens who own and use their weapons in a lawful manner; and most particularly those citizens who own weapons for the protection of their families, their lives, and their property.

Mr. Chairman, as a private citizen and as a State Senator, I commend you and your committee for your interest in reducing crime in our Nation, while at the same time protecting the rights of all our citizens. I wish you well in your endeavor and appreciate the opportunity to appear before you.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT H. BELL, SENATOR,
GEORGIA LEGISLATURE

Mr. CONYERS. Would you like to proceed first, Senator Bell? Mr. BELL. Mr. Chairman, would it be all right to read my statement because I think it clearly

Mr. CONYERS. Absolutely.

Mr. BELL [continuing]. States my position.

Mr. Chairman, my name is Robert H. Bell. I am a State Senator, for the 5th District of Georgia, and I reside in De Kalb County, a suburb of Atlanta. In the Senate, one of my responsibilities is serving as Chairman of the Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Law Enforcement. Since the control and reduction of crime is of major interest to our committee, we commend you for your concern, and welcome you to Georgia.

To understand the dimensions of crime in our State, one has only to look at the daily newspapers. Murder has become so commonplace in this city, that it only receives a passing mention in the press. Rape has become so widespread that it is either embarrassing or boring to the media, for they only give it minor attention. Armed robbery, robbery, burglary, and theft are so rampant that we have ceased talking about an absolute reduction in them-now we talk about just reducing the percentage of growth.