Senator COPELAND. Yes; that is all right. That is exactly what we have done here. The CHAIRMAN. Do you not read that in the proposed amendment? Senator COPELAND. How was that? The CHAIRMAN. Do you not read that in the proposed amendment? Is not that the construction to be placed on the proposed amendment? Senator COPELAND. No. Even if it were to be Pasteurized, he would not have to waive it. We do not want to have any doubt about it being waived. Do you see what I mean? We want to know that that milk, if it is going to be Pasteurized, is going to be permitted to be exported from Canada to our country. The CHAIRMAN. Don't you think that is in this proposed amendment, Senator Copeland? Senator COPELAND. No. The language is: The Secretary of Agriculture is hereby authorized, in his discretion, to waive * We do not want it that way. The CHAIRMAN. That is, a discretion to waive the tuberculin test, provided he adopts the Pasteurization method? Senator COPELAND. Well, I am perfectly willing to have it put in that he shall waive the tuberculin test if it is to be Pasteurized. I have no objection to that. That is exactly what we are seeking. We do not want any of that milk to come into New York City unless it is from tuberculin-tested cattle or is Pasteurized. The CHAIRMAN. I think we all understand that. Representative TABER. Might I make a suggestion right there? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Representative TABER. How about the subsequent words, Senator Copeland? Senator COPELAND. We want that in. This is the way I suggest it. Let me suggest that we now put in the modifying conditions, and then it will be in the record in a consecutive way. Mr. Taber, if you will listen to this, please: Provided, That paragraphs 2 and 5 of this section shall not apply when the milk is to be delivered to creameries in the United States within 15 miles of point of production of the milk, and operated by persons or corporations who import no milk except for Pasteurization. Now, then, this: Provided further, If milk imported when the requirements of paragraphs 2 and 5 do not apply, and the milk is sold, used, or disposed of in its raw state, or otherwise than as Pasteurized milk, by any person, the permit shall be revoked and the imported shall be subject to fine or imprisonment as provided in this act. Now, that is it. Mr. FINERTY. In view of the fact that the act already legalizes the importation of such milk for condensing purposes, the provision ought to be "who import any milk except for Pasteurization or condensing." Representative TABER. That is already covered in a separate paragraph in order to suit the condenser people, who appeared before the House Committee on Agriculture. Mr. FINERTY. I understand that. But this section will continue to apply to any company that does not import milk exclusively for Pasteurization. These people import for both Pasteurization and condensation. I want to add to the present language proposed by Senator Copeland these words, "Pasteurization and condensation." The condensing is permitted by a subsequent amendment. Representative TABER. That would involve the situation, because the condenser has simply asked to have the bacterial count proposition, and that is as far as they were concerned. And they stated, in order to induce the House to do that, that the milk would be sterilized. I do not like to see the bill go further than the condenser people originally asked to have it go along that line. Mr. FINERTY. The suggestion I make does not make any change in that respect. It only defines the people who may import. Representative TABER. But I think it does. The CHAIRMAN. I have listened to you both, and I think the cominittee understands that proposition. Senator LENROOT. May I suggest that there is no conflict between the two provisions regarding waiver? The CHAIRMAN. Not at all. Senator MAYFIELD. Senator Copeland, please read that amend ment. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Copeland, Senator Mayfield wishes you to read the amendment. Senator COPELAND. Let me say now, Mr. Chairman, that you were not here last year, but that I think this is a great bill, I think it has great merit if it is properly worded, because it is not right that our farmers in the United States should be required to live up to the high standards which we have here when milk may be brought in from another country which is produced under conditions entirely different from ours, at a lower standard. Senator RANSDELL. When you say another country, do you limit that to the Dominion of Canada or do you refer to different States of the Union? 66 Senator COPELAND. When I say from another country " I mean Canada or even Mexico. Senator RANSDELL. You refer to foreign countries? Senator COPELAND. Yes, sir. Senator RANSDELL. How about other States of the Union? What about them? Senator COPELAND. If I had may way I would have them all produce milk that way. Senator RANSDELL. You have strict regulations in the city of New York? Senator CoPELAND. Yes. Senator RANSDELL. How about other States that bring milk into New York; how are they regulated? Senator COPELAND. We do not permit any milk to be sold in New York City unless it meets our requirements. Senator RANSDELL. To be perfectly fair, if we are to look after the health of the people, and surely that is a matter in which we are all interested, why should not we have general regulations applicable to all? Senator COPELAND. I will join you on that. But that is not the purpose of this bill. Senator RANSDELL. It is not the purpose of this bill, I know. Senator COPELAND. I shall be very glad to join the Senator from Louisiana in such a proposition, and I know of no man who is more interested in health than I am. Senator RANSDELL. The only interest I have is to conserve health. Senator COPELAND. I propose to add, after line 22, page 2, this language: Provided, That paragraphs 2 and 5 of this section shall not apply when the milk is delivered to creameries in the United States within 15 miles of point of production of milk and operated by persons or corporations who import no milk except for Pasteurization. Senator MAYFIELD. Pardon me, but would not you change the "who " to the word "that"? The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mayfield suggests that you make it read "persons or corporations that." Senator COPELAND. Very well, "persons or corporations that import no milk." Is that the language? Senator MAYFIELD. Sure. Senator COPELAND. All right, I always defer to the lawyers on matters of this kind. Then this is what we have: Provided, That paragraphs 2 and 5 of this sect on shall not apply when the milk is delivered to creameries in the United States within 15 miles of point of production of milk and operated by persons or corporations that import no milk except for Pasteurization. And now further: Provided further, That if milk imported, when the requirements of section 2, paragraphs 2 and 5, are not applied, and the milk is sold, used, or disposed of in its raw state, or otherwise than as Pasteurized milk, by any person, firm, or corporation, the permit shall be revoked and the importer shall be subject to fine or imprisonment, or other penalty prescribed by this act. Senator RANSDELL. Would not that limit the milk to such as would be within 15 miles of the importer in the United States who has a Pasteurization plant? Senator COPELAND. Yes. But of course if it is somebody who lives 100 miles away he has to conform to the other requirements of the Lenroot-Taber bill. It does not prohibit him from bringing in milk. Senator RANSDELL. But he would be subject to all the restrictions of the bill, and it would be only those along the border who would be excepted. Senator COPELAND. Yes. Senator RANSDELL. Would that give substantial relief? Senator COPELAND. It would give all relief. There is no milk of any consequence produced up there. Senator RANSDELL. It all comes from right along the border. Senator RANSDELL. I did not know about that. Senator COPELAND. Yes. Gentlemen of the committee, my attention has been called to the fact that one reason we want this modification is because these farmers are now supplying us. We are seeking to save these farmers, too, from the embarrassment that they would be under. This does not open up any new field; it simply makes possible the operation of the present milk shed under the conditions of the Lenroot-Taber bill. Senator LENROOT. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Senator from New York a question? The CHAIRMAN. Certainly. Senator LENROOT. Senator Copeland, there seems to be a very broad distinction between these amendments in one respect that you have not mentioned. Under the proposition that is now proposed by the committee it applies to licenses to creameries that Pasteurize. Under your amendment it would be possible, would it not, for the importer to import milk and secure the waiver provisions and sell it to creameries. In other words, under your amendment the importer might not be a creamery that has to Pasteurize. Under the other amendment it would only apply to the importer. Senator COPELAND. I see that point. How would you change that? Senator LENROOT. It seems to me, if your suggestion is to be adopted, we would accomplish the same purpose by taking the same language we have here. Then, to get the waiver it should apply that the creamery must be the importer. Senator COPELAND. I would not object to that at all. The difficult thing, of course, is to get these various milk interests to agree. Senator LENROOT. I see the distinction there. Senator COPELAND. Yes. I have another committee to attend, Mr. Chairman. Do you need me any more? The CHAIRMAN. No, Senator Copeland. The very parties interested in the measure, all the conflicting interests, have gone into my room to see if they can not get together and agree on something. Senator LENROOT. While they are gone I might briefly take up another matter which was mentioned yesterday, Mr. Chairman. Senator RANSDELL. May I ask the Senator another question? Senator LENROOT. Yes. Senator RANSDELL. I want to know, if you know, what is the rate of tariff on butter, cheese and milk, and dairy products. Senator LENROOT. Butter is 12 cents a pound. Senator LENROOT. Yes. Senator RANSDELL. And how much is milk? Senator LENROOT. I have forgotten how much it is, exactly. Senator RANSDELL. (addressing Representative Voigt). Do you know, Congressman? Representative VOIGT. No; I do not know now. It has been changed. Senator RANSDELL. How much is it on cream? Senator LENROOT. I do not know, but it has been changed so that the tariff is much less than on butter proportionately. Senator RANSDELL. That can be put in the record. I want to know about all dairy products. Senator LENROOT. Cheese is 5 cents per pound, I think. Senator RANSDELL. And one further question: In your judgment, would $50,000 be a start to enable the Department of Agriculture to enforce this act. Would it not take many times that amount? Senator LENROOT. No; I do not think so. Senator RANSDELL. I would like to have information from the Secretary on that, because I can not conceive that $50,000 would be a start. Senator LENROOT. I say that because the importations are coming from along the border, and the question I wanted to discuss very briefly is that I assume they will come into ports of entry, and this work of inspection will be made so the expense can not be very great. Senator RANSDELL. That might be, but I would like to know." Have we anything from the Secretary on that, Mr. Chairman, as to the probable cost of enforcing it if it becomes a law? The CHAIRMAN. I do not know, Senator. I inherited this bill. We will look this up. Senator LENROOT. You realize, Senator Ransdell, the chief thing in the law is the granting of permits. Senator RANSDELL. Of course; but you have to have intelligent information in order to grant those permits. Senator LENROOT. Yes; but the permits will comply with the law, and the inspection will be to see that they comply with the law. The cargoes will not have to be inspected at all ports of entry. Senator GOODING. That depends on the number of ports? Senator LENROOT. Yes; entirely. Senator GOODING. And the number of importers. Senator LENROOT. Yes. Senator GOODING. I do not think it would be very expensive. Senator RANSDELL. I would like to know what the Secretary has to say about that, and I think we should take steps to get the information from him. The CHAIRMAN. The Secretary of Agriculture made a report, I am informed by Senator Keyes, covering in his report all points, and said it would not be very expensive. But, Senator Ransdell, you want that information I will ask for it. it Senator RANSDELL. I would like to have that information, and if you will call for it I wish you would. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Senator Lenroot, did you complete your statement? Senator LENROOT. No, Mr. Chairman, there was one point made yesterday that troubled me somewhat, and that was the point made that there would be no way of enforcing this act because of the indefiniteness of where the law applied when milk came across the border, whether it applied there of whether it applied at the port of entry and inspection, and that a change might have taken place between the time it actually crossed the border and the time of inspection, and then there could be no conviction. I am frank to say that troubled me somewhat yesterday; but I will say that whatever there may be in that, it applies to all our present acts, our meat inspection act and with reference to the importation of meat animals. And I have the statute before me [reading]: That the importation of neat cattle, sheep and other ruminants, and swine, which are diseased or infected with any disease, or which shall have been exposed to such infection within sixty days next before the exportation, is hereby prohibited. And then the Secretary of Agriculture is authorized to place in quarantine any such cattle and to establish quarantine ports, etc. So |