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Senator RANSDELL. I suppose they have local inspection,
Mr. Scott. Could we or not under the provisions of this bill have a Federal inspection that would protect all the communities throughout the Únited States?
Mr. Scott. Certainly. If this bill is made applicable to the United States as well as to Canada, but it can not be. I am objecting because you are differentiating against us and you are providing machinery that I think will shut us off. My idea is that it should be general. I have no further objection to make if they are all put on a par; that is agreeable to us.
There is just one further point in this bill that I wanted to emphasize, and that is that the farmer has got to get a certificate from the Secretary of Agriculture, and while we have thousands and thousands and thousands of farmers
Representative TABOR. That is the importer.
Mr. Scott. I was trying to find that section. Well, the importer can do that, because there are only a few of them.
That is the point, gentlemen. We believe this bill would shut out the milk and cream coming from Canada. You have shut out our wheat, you have shut out our catle by the duty and we must put up with it.
If you will pardon me for being so frank, I do not like, when the question of health is brought into it if you do not want our milk and cream, be frank and put it out by some other method but not by condemning our dairies. You know we quarreled with England. They kept our cattle out. They said our cattle. were diseased. That was untrue. They had to protect their own interests. They said they were a free-trade country and did not want to protect cattle by a protective duty, and they unreasonably and unfairly and untruthfully issued an embargo against our cattle, which existed for many years, saying they kept it out because the healthy were unhealthy. We quarreled with them and made such a fuss over it that they finally changed it and we are now doing an excellent business in England with out cattle, and we do not mind so much the duty your emergency tariff put on our cattle, but we do not like you to shut out Canadian milk and cream on the statement that it is unhealthy, because you have the absolute machinery there to insure perfectly good milk and cream, and I believe the cities want it and are seeing to it that the people get it in a healthy condition.
Representative TABOR, Mr. Scott, do you believe that if this milk bill goes into effect anyone who is now shipping milk to New York City and complying with the regulations prescribed by New York City would be interfered with in the slightest degree?
Mr. Scott. Yes; I do.
Mr. Scott. He will be discouraged. He will be discouraged from shipping milk at all from Canada by the regulation that may go into effect. I do not think that the producers or competitors would be so keen about this bill if that was not going to be the result. We are all human. I do not think these gentlemen are so concerned with the health of these people as they are concerned with keeping their competitors out of the market.
Mr. Scott. Undoubtedly there are farms in Canada that have conditions like that, but they did not go to the territories we would like to see them go to.
The CHAIRMAN. Assuming conditions are better in other parts of Canada, that milk they testified about did come in here, is not that something we should remedy?
Mr. Scott. Yes; but with the health departments of New York City and Boston to remedy it there is no need for this legislation.
The CHAIRMAN. Even assuming that, then assuming what I think it is fair to assume, that New York City and Boston have not done it, if they have not done it and it is needed and ought to be done, who is left to do it unless we do it?
Mr. Scott. The first intimation I had of this matter was an item in the newspapers, a statement made by Doctor Harris, commissioner of health, I think he is called, of New York City:
Investigation into frauds, said to involve millions of dollars and having to do with the city's bottled milk supply, will be started to-morrow by Dr. Louis I. Harris, commissioner of health. The States and Provinces where the in. vestigation will be conducted are New York, Maryland, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, Ontario, and Quebec. It will be under the general direction of Hugh W. Taylor, director of the bureau of food and drugs of the health department.
And then a little bit later on I saw that they went further into it. Now you have this matter in hand; are you going to pass legislation to say that the Board of Health of New York City is not doing its business properly? They have the machinery and we are told by everybody, and they are right in saying so, that they have an excellent code of rules. They have the machinery and they have the rules.
The CHAIRMAN. Even admitting that, you must concede, Mr. Scott, that even if you think the method we pursue is not right, and we would be glad to have you criticize it in any way, after all we have to pass on that and not your officials.
Mr. SCOTT. Quite so.
The CHAIRMAN. If we are doing something here that could be better done by the city of New York, we would be glad to hear about it, of course. However, at the same time it is up to us to decide whether we are or are not overstepping the bounds to which we ought to go in order to protect the consumers of milk in this country.
Mr. Scott. You see, it is an entirely new idea. The production of milk heretofore has been in the hands of the municipalities in which the milk is being sold. Now, you are asked to supersede that by a new system of protecting milk coming from Canada into your country.
Senator KENDRICK. Would the city of New York or the city of Boston or any city on this side of the line have the same opportunity of control as to the methods under which protection is car ried on across the line in Canada as this Government would have!
Mr. Scott. Absolutely. They are doing it to-day. There are inspectors in Canada. All these men who are bringing milk into the United States have their inspectors there.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Scott, I am assuming, as I think I have a right to assume, that the Secretary of Agriculture would enforce this in good faith and would not do what you are fearful he would
lo, appoint a set of men whose object would be to keep your milk yut; but he would in good faith try to carry out the provisions if this law and the provision on page 3 of the bill, and when he became satisfied that you had adopted a system of inspection and regulation that was satisfactory and that complied practically with vur terms, he would take your certificates. Do you not think that he would do that just the same as England takes your certificate low on butter?
Mr. Scott. I think so, but unfortunately we have not the mahinery for inspecting milk in that way. The milk that is inpected is the milk going into Montreal or going into Ottawa or oing into Quebec. We have these inspectors, but we have no genral inspectors of milk that is sold anywhere.
You remember you asked one of these witnesses yesterday if you ould not go on his farm and buy milk, and he said you could. The CHAIRMAN: Yes. Mr. SCOTT. Of course, you can do it in Canada. There is no egulation either in New York or in Canada; it is only the regulaions of the cities that keeps the bad milk out.
I took the liberty the other day of calling your attention to the egulation regarding inspectors, and I think it is most important. Probably some of the gentlemen have not heard it, this regulation of New York City. It is regulation 8 on page 14, dealing with inpection:
The person, firm, or corporation holding a permit to bring into and sell in he city of New York grade B milk Pasteurized
That is the second grade, the grade requiring Pasteurization; I do not think there is any of the first grade comes from Canada at all, because it is something very specialhall cause a yearly inspection to be made of all dairies from which such milk as been obtained by a competent person whose qualifications are acceptable o the department of health of the city of New York. A report of the result of such inspection shall be made upon an official dairy report card issued or ipproved by the said department. Such report shall be filed in the creamery, hipping station, or Pasteurizing plant to which such milk is delivered and shall 'emain so filed for a period of three years.
Now, that inspector is appointed by the concern that is gathering he milk, Sheffield farms, Merrell-Soule, or Dairymen's League, wherever they are, whether they are gathering milk in Canada or n the United States. Those inspectors are appointed by the conerns for whom they are going to inspect, but they must, of course, be approved by the New York health officials.
Now, the Dairymen's League officials told us they appoint their own inspectors. These men are paid by the Dairymen's League, they are going around to inspect their own members. Everything is perfectly all right, of course, but nevertheless the view of that inspector I submit is going to be different from the view of the inspector sent out by the Department of Agriculture.
The CHAIRMAN, I agree with you on that, Mr. Scott. I think it would be a very, very objectionable thing if the Secretary of Agriculture accepted the employees, for instance, of the Dairymen's League or of any other producer of milk in this country to inspect the milk of their competitors coming in. Even if they were perMr. HOLMAN. Mr. Scott, if your shippers and producers comply with the regulations would they be discriminated against ?
Mr. SCOTT. Complied with which regulations?
Mr. Scott. But they are concerned with them now. That is the point. You gentlemen seem to assume that any old thing can get in from Canada.
Mr. HOLMAN. If this bill, which is based upon the New York State and City regulations, only puts into effect at our border those local regulations, how can you object to a Federal act!
Mr. Scott. Well, the system is different from the New York system.
Senator KENDRICK. His contention has been rather clear to me, that the machinery itself would afford an opportunity for the inspectors to practically reject any cream or any milk or any dairy products from that country.
Mr. SCOTT. That is the principle.
Mr. Firts. Mr. Scott, if I might answer you in respect to the Dairymen's League inspectors, they would never be allowed to go to Canada because they are employed by the farmers in the New York milk shed distributing milk in New York City, and our farmers would not stand the expense of a man to inspect some other product.
STATEMENT OF W. F. STEPHEN
The CHAIRMAN. Doctor Stephen, will give your name for the record.
Mr. STEPHEN. W. F. Stephen, Huntingdon, Quebec; secretary of the Canadian Ayrshire Breeders' Association, vice president National Dairy Council of Canada, agricultural representative Dominion Council of Health for Canada, ex-secretary of the Montreal Milk and Cream Producers Association.
Mr. HOLMAN. Are these voluntary associations, or are they associations officially connected with Canada ?
Mr. STEPHEN: The Dominion Council of Health is connected with the Department of Health of Canada. We hold two three-day sessions a year. I have the honor of representing agriculture. We deal with all health matters of our country, even down to the health laws, the examination of meats, canned goods, ice cream, etc.
I was from 1901 until 1920 secretary of the Montreal Milk and Cream Producers Association, and naturally I feel that I know a little about the milk business of Canada. I travel all over the country from east to west in connection with my Ayrshire work, come into your country occasionally, and I also do journalistic work and edit the Canadian Ayrshire Review, a magazine, and I feel it my duty to keep posted as to dairy conditions not only in my own country but in other countries as well.
Mr. Scott has well covered the matters in connection with our dairy interests of Canada, but I would say further that while agriculture is the primary business of our country and dairy business is first in our agriculture, while we are a big consuming people of dairy products, particularly butter, 27 pounds per capita per year, yet we have to export our surplus, and that surplus goes largely to
Great Britain, and the price of dairy products in Great Britain largely fixes the price of dairy products from Canada, and even New Zealand has influenced the price of our dairy products and our milk and cream in our cities during the past winter under the Australian treaty.
Now, first, just let' me say that all cities in Canada have a severe code of regulations, about equal to your New York conditions. Montreal City has lately adopted a code of regulations that goes one better, I think, than your cities of New York and Boston. Similar to Chicago, they have incorporated into the regulations tuberculin testing and require that all cows be tested, require that the producers who supply Montreal with milk or cream comply with those regulations and our producers are ready to meet this.
Just let me give you a line on the
Senator KENDRICK. Did I understand you to say that the regulations of Montreal require all cows to be tested ?
Mr. STEPHEN. All cows must be free from tuberculosis; must have been tested within the year and free from tuberculosis.
Senator KENDRICK. Does that rule or regulation apply in connection with the cows from which this milk that is exported into the United States comes?
Mr. STEPHEN. A large part of it.
Mr. STEPHEN. Not yet; it soon will be. I will just come to that in a moment.
Now it takes 70,000 cows to supply Montreal with its milk, and we have within a radius of 100 miles of Montreal about 80,000 cows that have been tuberculin tested. The district in which I live, Huntingdon, is in the center of a three-county T.-B. free area. Eighty-two thousand cattle were tested in the fall of 1924, with only 8 per cent of reactors, and when the test was made last year one-half of 1 per cent of reactors were found in those herds in which they found reactors the year previous.
Now, Sheffield Farms draw a considerable supply of milk from that section, and Sheffield Farms drawing milk from the producers of my county, the trucks come practically into and through our town collecting this milk. Every producer that supplies Sheffield Farms, whose Pasteurization plant is over the line in New York State, every Canadian producer must sign that report of inquiry [handing paper to the chairman), which is practically the New York health regulations, and every producer that supplies the Sheffield Farms must live up to the New York regulations and, more, he is inspected. Their inspectors come in and put them through quite a rigid inspection, and had Mr. McDonough known me at that time and come to me I could have taken him to a great many of those producers who supply the Sheffield Farms and he would have found conditions as good on those farms as he would find them in northern New York. I know whereof I speak, because I am in northern New York frequently and know something of the conditions there.
The Beaumert Co., who are manufacturers of fancy cheese in the town of Huntingdon, a New York concern, succeeded the Borden Co. about four years ago. They are building up a wonderful business.