Senator COPELAND. You know it took a long time for the chairman to get around to the point where he took any interest in what I was saying. The CHAIRMAN. Section 3 of the bill provides that the Secretary of Agriculture shall cause inspection to be made to insure that those who bring in the milk have complied with section 2. Senator COPELAND. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Section 2 has five clauses in it. The CHAIRMAN. It goes on to say further in section 3 "and in all cases when he finds that such milk and/or cream is produced and handled so as not to be unfit for importation under clauses 1, 2, and 3 of section 2 of this act, he shall issue to persons making application therefor permits to ship milk and/or cream into the United States,' etc. Why do you confine that to clauses 1, 2, and 3 and omit clauses 4 and 5? Mr. BRADLEY FULLER. Those are conditions precedent, and the others are conditions subsequent. The CHAIRMAN. That still does not make it very plain to me, whether it is a condition precedent or condition subsequent. Senator LENROOT. After the permit is issued he is given the right, then the milk that he does import must still be inspected for bacterial content, etc., that to be determined from examination of the milk itself. Senator COPELAND. That is after it gets into the country. The CHAIRMAN. The first part of section 3 of the bill, for instance, says: The Secretary of Agriculture shall cause such inspections to be made as are necessary to insure that milk and cream are so produced and handled as to comply with the provisions of section 2 of this act. Now that is perfectly plain. Section 2 includes clauses 3 and 4 which are omitted when you get further on. Senator COPELAND. Let me see if I can make this plain to you. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I would like to have you do, Doctor. Senator COPELAND. They must inspect the farms. We expect of the Secretary of Agriculture or the official of the country who is authorized by the Secretary of Agriculture to act for us to see first that the conditions are all right on the farms, and the conditions of the cows are all right. That is on page 1, now. Milk or cream shall be considered unfit for importation when all cows producing such milk or cream are not healthy and a physical examination of all such cows has not been made within one year. That is the first thing. The CHAIRMAN. Yes, that is plain. Senator COPELAND. All right. Second, that the milk does not come, if it is going to be shipped raw, from cows which have been tuberculin tested. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Senator COPELAND. The third relates to the sanitary conditions of the farm or creamery. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Senator COPELAND. Those are things across the line. Now, sections 4 and 5 are things which can be determined at our own line, the bacterial content and the temperature of the milk. I have not studied the bill, but I assume that is the reason for it. Senator LENROOT. In other words, if the permit is issued they will still be subject to subdivisions 4 and 5. Senator COPELAND. You see one of the very important things, Mr. Chairman, in the transportation of milk, is to keep the temperature down, and if the temperature were to start at Rouses Point up in northern New York at 40°, and then be permitted to go up to 60 or 70° by the time it got to New York City that milk would be teeming with bacteria, they would multiply so rapidly in the milk, the germs of diarrhea and the fermenting germs would be of such enormous quantities that the milk would be dangerous milk. So these first three provisions of section 2 make it obligatory upon the Secretary of Agriculture to see to it that the farms or creameries from which this milk comes are sanitary and clean and that the cows are healthy, and then the fourth and fifth provisions provide that the bacterial count and the temperature shall be maintained. The CHAIRMAN. And those are two things beyond the control of the importer? Senator COPELAND. Beyond the control of the man up in the country-of the exporter? The CHAIRMAN. In case it comes from Canada, the Canadian shipper of the milk can comply with the first three clauses but he can not comply with the fourth and fifth, because the milk is out of his control? Senator COPELAND. He will have to make arrangements with some refrigeration system or with somebody to see to it that after the milk enters the United States it will kept at the proper temperature. The CHAIRMAN. Do these same provisions apply to our citizens? Senator COPELAND. Oh, absolutely. You can not sell a drop in the market. The CHAIRMAN. That is done in the place where the localities can prescribe any rules they want? Senator COPELAND. You can not sell it in the whole State of New York unless it is milk complying with these qualifications. The CHAIRMAN. Why saddle onto the man over in Canada these two provisions that apply to our producers just the same and, if they are enforced, have got to be enforced by our own administrators of the law? Senator COPELAND. Because, Senator, the man up in Canada who is producing and we have a lot of them selling in New York City. We have a map with a black mark for every place where milk is produced. You would be amazed to find how many of these centers of distribution to New York City are in Canada. Now we expect that Canadian dealer, that Canadian exporter, who is exporting milk from his country into ours, not alone to maintain this standard of excellence on his farm and in the preparation of the milk, but we expect him to deliver it to its ultimate place of distribution in condition for safe use. The CHAIRMAN. Now the Amercan has to do the same thing so far as delivery is concerned? Senator COPELAND. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is the law now. Why do we have that as one of the conditions that the Canadian farmer or milk producer has got to look after when we already have it as soon as it gets across the line and is subject to our law? Senator LENROOT. Of course that has to be done because of the difficulty of stopping it at the border and inspecting it. It may go to various places of distribution, and may cross the border at various places. The CHAIRMAN. The point I am getting at is this: It does not seem to me it is necessary in a bill providing for regulation of milk that is imported from foreign countries to saddle onto an importer a duty that is already the duty of everybody who is shipping or handling milk. Senator COPELAND. Now let me answer you there. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Senator COPELAND. You see this man in Canada desires to market his milk. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Senator COPELAND. He gets a higher price in our market than he does at home. The CHAIRMAN. At least he ships it here. Senator COPELAND. The obligation ought not to rest upon us to have to test that. It ought to be delivered in proper condition in the city of New York, because that is where it is going to go. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Senator COPELAND. It ought to be delivered to us in New York so that we know that it has met the standards required in this country. The CHAIRMAN. Suppose I am a shipper now just this side of the line. I am an American citizen. Right now I have to comply with that, haven't I? Senator COPELAND. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. And so does every other shipper. The CHAIRMAN. And so does the Canadian shipper. Senator COPELAND. I will tell you where that is done. We say it is done at the creamery. You as an individual do not ship the milk. You sell your milk to the creamery and that creamery is required to maintain the same standard that we are asking in this bill. They are required to see that the bacterial count is low and that the temperature is low and that the milk is delivered to us in New York, and of course we are going to check up on them in New York to see if the milk shipper is meeting our requirements, and we are going to check up on the American shipper as well as the Canadian shipper. That milk goes through in 40-quart cans, original packages, sealed, from the creamery in Canada to the milk station in New York City, and I think it is reasonable, I think it is proper, Senator Lenroot, that those two additional requirements should be made. The CHAIRMAN. This is what I am anxious to understand. When we admit the milk from Canada, after it is once produced, the Canadian shipper should not be compelled to undergo any responsibility after the milk is over here and comes in according to law. Assuming that he has complied with all those things he should have the bacterial content and the temperature of the milk. I have not studied the bill, but I assume that is the reason for it. Senator LENROOT. In other words, if the permit is issued they will still be subject to subdivisions 4 and 5. Senator COPELAND. You see one of the very important things, Mr. Chairman, in the transportation of milk, is to keep the temperature down, and if the temperature were to start at Rouses Point up in northern New York at 40°, and then be permitted to go up to 60 or 70° by the time it got to New York City that milk would be teeming with bacteria, they would multiply so rapidly in the milk, the germs of diarrhea and the fermenting germs would be of such enormous quantities that the milk would be dangerous milk. So these first three provisions of section 2 make it obligatory upon the Secretary of Agriculture to see to it that the farms or creameries from which this milk comes are sanitary and clean and that the cows are healthy, and then the fourth and fifth provisions provide that the bacterial count and the temperature shall be maintained. The CHAIRMAN. And those are two things beyond the control of the importer? Senator COPELAND. Beyond the control of the man up in the country of the exporter? The CHAIRMAN. In case it comes from Canada, the Canadian shipper of the milk can comply with the first three clauses but he can not comply with the fourth and fifth, because the milk is out of his control? Senator COPELAND. He will have to make arrangements with some refrigeration system or with somebody to see to it that after the milk enters the United States it will kept at the proper temperature. The CHAIRMAN. Do these same provisions apply to our citizens? Senator COPELAND. Oh, absolutely. You can not sell a drop in the market. The CHAIRMAN. That is done in the place where the localities can prescribe any rules they want? Senator COPELAND. You can not sell it in the whole State of New York unless it is milk complying with these qualifications. The CHAIRMAN. Why saddle onto the man over in Canada these two provisions that apply to our producers just the same and, if they are enforced, have got to be enforced by our own administrators of the law? Senator COPELAND. Because, Senator, the man up in Canada who is producing and we have a lot of them selling in New York City. We have a map with a black mark for every place where milk is produced. You would be amazed to find how many of these centers of distribution to New York City are in Canada. Now we expect that Canadian dealer, that Canadian exporter, who is exporting milk from his country into ours, not alone to maintain this standard of excellence on his farm and in the preparation of the milk, but we expect him to deliver it to its ultimate place of distribution in condition for safe use. The CHAIRMAN. Now the Amercan has to do the same thing so far as delivery is concerned? Senator COPELAND. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is the law now. Why do we have that as one of the conditions that the Canadian farmer or milk producer has got to look after when we already have it as soon as it gets across the line and is subject to our law? Senator LENROOT. Of course that has to be done because of the difficulty of stopping it at the border and inspecting it. It may go to various places of distribution, and may cross the border at various places. The CHAIRMAN. The point I am getting at is this: It does not seem to me it is necessary in a bill providing for regulation of milk that is imported from foreign countries to saddle onto an importer a duty that is already the duty of everybody who is shipping or handling milk. Senator COPELAND. Now let me answer you there. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Senator COPELAND. You see this man in Canada desires to market his milk. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Senator COPELAND. He gets a higher price in our market than he does at home. The CHAIRMAN. At least he ships it here. Senator COPELAND. The obligation ought not to rest upon us to have to test that. It ought to be delivered in proper condition in the city of New York, because that is where it is going to go. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Senator COPELAND. It ought to be delivered to us in New York so that we know that it has met the standards required in this country. The CHAIRMAN. Suppose I am a shipper now just this side of the line. I am an American citizen. Right now I have to comply with that, haven't I? Senator COPELAND. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. And so does every other shipper. The CHAIRMAN. And so does the Canadian shipper. Senator COPELAND. I will tell you where that is done. We say it is done at the creamery. You as an individual do not ship the milk. You sell your milk to the creamery and that creamery is required to maintain the same standard that we are asking in this bill. They are required to see that the bacterial count is low and that the temperature is low and that the milk is delivered to us in New York, and of course we are going to check up on them in New York to see if the milk shipper is meeting our requirements, and we are going to check up on the American shipper as well as the Canadian shipper. That milk goes through in 40-quart cans, original packages, sealed, from the creamery in Canada to the milk station in New York City, and I think it is reasonable, I think it is proper, Senator Lenroot, that those two additional requirements should be made. The CHAIRMAN. This is what I am anxious to understand. When we admit the milk from Canada, after it is once produced, the Canadian shipper should not be compelled to undergo any responsibility after the milk is over here and comes in according to law. Assuming that he has complied with all those things he should have |