Senator ALDRICH. You do not mean to say that the ground on which the Treasury Department has assessed a duty upon it is that it is a product of artificial alizarine.

Mr. PICKHARDT. Yes, sir.

Senator ALDRICH. I think not. I think their decision is based upon the idea that it is a coal tar color, or a dye not enumerated.

Mr. PICKHARDT. That may also be. But the decision is that it is a product of artificial alizarine. We claim it is artificial alizarine, which it really is. There is no change of its characteristic properties. It is such just the same as it was before. It has the characteristic property of a fast dye. It has all the characteristic property of all the fast alizarine dyes and indigo. We claim it is alizarine, but it has undergone a change. Artificial alizarine is taken and treated with certain preparations and orange is produced. In the next stage alizarine blue is produced. We maintain that the change of artificial alizarine blue is not such as to change its nature. The same nature is there yet, but it has been prepared in the factory for direct use by the dyer for certain colors. I have not the decisions with me. I am quite satisfied that one of the reasons why they decided it must pay 35 per cent. was that it was a product of artificial alizarine.

Mr. TICHENOR. I think the position of the Department is that the only thing known as alizarine being named, all other products of coaltar and dyes are excluded.

Senator ALDRICH. I think that is a proper decision. I do not see how, under the law, it could be otherwise.

The CHAIRMAN. We will now have to adjourn the hearing until later in the afternoon.

Senator HARRIS. Allow me to suggest that you begin with a distinct statement of what you think ought to be done in the way of legislation, and then, as tersely and as clearly as you may, assign such reasons as may occur to you for the recommendations you make.

Mr. PICKHARDT. I suppose it is known to you gentlemen that there are various grades of dyestuffs, according to the fastness of the colors, fastness as regards the action of sunlight, acids, alkalies, etc. There are a great many dyes which are fugitive, not fast; some stand acids very well, others stand alkalies, and others do not stand sunlight; that is, as soon as they are exposed to the light they fade away. The best colors in many centuries were those which were really fast; one of the fastest, if not the very fastest, is madder or its preparations, and the artificial madder, or artificial alizarine, which is really faster than madder itself. There are some coloring principles in artificial alizarine (particularly iso-purpurine) which are extremely fast. It has always seemed to me that fastness was due, to a great extent, to the great heat through which it passes in its preparation. After it comes out of the furnace, after it is fused with caustic potash or caustic soda under very great heat, the color comes out ready-made. Without that great heat and the caustic alkalies they could not develop. It is only necessary to separate and refine it when it comes out.

The CHAIRMAN. Where are these dyes made that you are speaking of? Mr. PICKHARDT. The dyes which fade are principally the dye-woods, such as logwood, etc. The dyes which do not fade are principally alizarine and indigo. Artificial alizarine is made in Germany, and only the very best sitnated factories have survived.

Senator DISCOCK. When you say artificial alizarine you mean all the coal-tar products?

Mr. PICKHARDT Oh, no; I beg your pardon; I mean artificial alizarine in contradistinction to natural alizarine.

Senator HISCOCK. You mean all the dyes that are products of what? Mr. PICKHARDT. I explained this morning that artificial alizarine is produced from anthracine; that is a product of coal-tar. Besides authracine there is benzole, which is the mother substance of aniline dyes; there is also naphtaline in coal-tar, and there are various other things; and altogether they can be called coal-tar dyes, but they are distinct. from each other, extremely distinct.

Senator HISCOCK. When you speak of manufacture in Germany what do you include in the manufacture there?

Mr. PICKHARDT. I am now speaking of artificial alizarine alone. The CHAIRMAN. You mean thereby a fast color which is used in dyeing?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Yes, sir.

Senator HISCOCK. Are all the dyes that are fast colors, and that are the products of coal-tar, made in Germany?

Mr. PICKHARDT. No; that is not it exactly, because there are some coal tar dyes which are really very fugitive.

Senator HISCOCK. What I wish to have in that connection is the extent of the manufacture in Germany.

Mr. PICKHARDT. Allow me; I was coming to that after I was through with artificial alizarine. I have also to speak of some other of the coaltar dyes, and I was coming to that afterwards.

Senator HISCOCK. Do you want to give us the reason why those mills in Germany survive?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Yes, I can; the prices came down so low, in consequence of competition, that only those who manufactured their necessary materials, except anthracine almost all themselves, having no freight. no cartage, etc., were the only ones who did survive, and all the others not so well situated, who had to buy such materials, went to the wall. Senator HISCOCK. Was it all due to German competition? Mr. PICKHARDT. To German competition altogether.

Senator HISCOCK. That is, competition among themselves?
Mr. PICKHARDT. Among themselves; yes.

Senator ALDRICH. About how many establishments are there that now make it?

Mr. PICKHARDT. There are seven establishments making it, some large and some small. Three of the largest ones are of about equal capacity; the smaller ones make less, but they are perfectly able to compete and do compete. There are three complete factories that are now shut up, cannot compete, and cannot make it any more, on account of the low prices and nothing else.

Senator HISCOCK. Is it lower now than it ever has been before?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Not at this very moment; it is really pulling up a little. It has been so excessively low in price that they could hardly produce it, but they have pulled up in price a little, though it is about as low as it has ever been. However, I couldn't say, for it would not be strictly true, that it is as low at this moment as it has ever been; at the same time, the difference is hardly perceptible. We will sell even to-day at about the same price as we have been selling since last year, but for future deliveries, for next year, etc., prices are a little higher because the anthracine which they have to use they have to pay more for.

The three factories which have closed up and which I have referred to are situated, one in Paris, or near Paris, another in Basle,

Switzerland, and the third is in Germany, near Frankfort. There is a fourth one, but I am not quite sure about that; that is in England, but I am almost sure that that is also closed up; at any rate, I know that three are closed up.

The consumption of artificial alizarine has increased very much within the last two years. It is used now where people formerly did not want to use it at all and could hardly dream of using it. The consumption has been decreasing on cotton goods, but increasing in the use of woolen goods. It is so now that for woolen goods fast colors are wanted, which contain alizarine; all these drabs and all these common colors that were formerly fugitive are now fast.

One of the inventions, that has been made since the last revision of the tariff, is alizarine blue. Alizarine blue is an artificially prepared alizarine; it is still an artificial alizarine because it still has the characteristic properties of alizarine; but it has been prepared in such a manner that it yields a blue, which hitherto it was not possible to make from madder or from artificial alizarine. It is used extensively in Germany and in England in competition with indigo, because it can be used very profitably and advantageously against it.

Senator HISCOCK. Is it patented?

Mr. PICKHARDT. It is partly patented, not wholly. A vast quantity of alizarine blue is used for dyeing wool, in an insoluble state. It is applied in this insoluble state in the dye vat to the fiber, the fiber takes it up, and is dyed blue. A small portion is used in a soluble state. It is used in the soluble state for calicoes and for other purposes where solubility is essential. The invention of making it soluble before use, is patented; the insoluble dye is not patented. This artificial alizarine blue takes, to a great extent, the place of natural indigo; it can be applied for purposes where it is extremely difficult to apply natural indigo. It is used mostly for making fast dyes in woolen goods. Before this invention decoctions of logwood and similar dye-woods were used. At present, in this country, the use of it is limited because the Government charges a duty of 35 per cent. on it. The manufacturers of woolen goods help themselves by making similar things, but not nearly so good, with decoctions of logwood, etc. If it came in free, the same as indigo, it would be used to a considerable extent and very profitably for the manufacturer as well as for the consumer of the cloth.

Artificial indigo was invented some ten years ago. It was put in the last revision of the tariff on the free list because at that time there were expectations that it could be made profitably and used profitably. Those expectations have been disappointed. The production of it is too expensive, and for that reason it is made and used in a very limited degree, and in cases where expense is not a question, but where brilliancy of color is the only thing desirable. The reason why it is expensive is that only part of the benzole, from which it is made, is artificial indigo yielding; the rest of it is not so yielding, and can not be applied for other profitable purposes. As soon as means are found to use the rest of the raw material which is not used for indigo, it will be so cheap that it will easily compete against the cheap labor of East India. The dye which is now mainly used in competition with indigo is this artificial alizarine blue, and where fastness of color is not a question some of the aniline dyes are used. Aniline dyes are to a great extent in direct competition with indigo, but of course fastness of color is not considered there. Alizarine brown is also made and used in Germany.

Senator HISCOCK. Before you pass from alizarine blue, by how many concerns is that made?

Mr. PICKHARDT. That is made by three concerns.
Senator HISCOCK. Who owns the patent for it?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Our factory owns the patent for the soluble dye. Senator HISCOCK. Your house owns the patent in this country?

Mr. PICKHARDT. That would not be quite right. Our factory, our corporation in Germany, which I here represent in this country, owns the patent.

Senator HISCOCK. That is, your house in Germany owns the patent for this country?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Yes.

Senator ALDRICH. Then those who manufacture have to manufacture under a license from your people?

Mr. PICKHARDT. They manufacture the insoluble dye only, which is not patented.

Senator ALDRICH. Your people are the only people who manufacture the soluble dye?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Yes; the people here do not use the soluble, except for some particular purposes.

Senator HISCOCK. There is no use for the insoluble?

Mr. PICKHARDT. There is no use for the soluble except for particular purposes.

Senator HISCOCK. What did I understand you to say the soluble is used for?

Mr. PICKHARDT. The soluble is used for calico and for particular woolen goods which, as far as I recollect, are not made here to a great extent. The insoluble is used here for woolen goods.

Senator HISCOCK. It is the insoluble upon which there is a patent, is it?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Upon the soluble.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it the insoluble that is imported largely ?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Much more largely than the soluble.

The CHAIRMAN. In what form does it come?

Mr. PICKHARDT. In the form of paste.

Senator HISCOCK. Has there never been a patent on the insoluble? Mr. PICKHARDT. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it made in this country at all?

Mr. PICKHARDT. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Neither the soluble nor the insoluble?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Neither.

Senator ALDRICH. None of these alizarine colors are made here, as I understand.

Mr. PICKHARDT. No, they are not.

The CHAIRMAN. Why not?

Mr. PICKHARDT. The production of artificial alizarine requires a very large plant, requires very great experience and skill, as well as apparatus and cheap raw material, to such an extent that it can not even be made profitably near Paris. I mean by that to imply that if it can not be made in Switzerland and can not be made near Paris, that is reason enough why it can not be made here.

Senator HISCOCK. It can be made here, so far as raw material is concerned, that all exists here.

Mr. PICKHARDT. No, it does not; it does exist to a small extent in Germany. Some is made in France, but the great bulk of anthracine is imported there from England.

Senator HISCOCK. It is imported from England and becomes the raw material from which that is made.

Mr. PICKHARDT. That is coal-tar.

Senator HISCOCK. That is made here.

Mr. PICKHARDT. No; I beg your pardon, not that kind of coal-tar. Coal-tar which can be profitably used for that purpose is made principally in London; it is also made in Paris, and also in some of the cities on the Rhine.

Senator HISCOCK. You say that the coal-tar from which this is made is made principally in London. Is there any difference between the coal-tar produced in this country and the London coal-tar, except that new chemical elements have been added to it and it has been further perfected by additional methods?

Mr. PICKHARDT. Yes, sir.

Senator ALDRICH. I think you do not get the force of Senator Hiscock's question.

Mr. PICKHARDT. As I understand the question it is whether there is a difference between the coal-tar produced here in a natural way from gas-works and the coal-tar produced in London in a natural way from their gas-works there; is not that the question?

Senator HISCOCK. Yes, that is my question.

Mr. PICKHARDT. The coal-tar produced in London is very different from the coal tar produced in America; that which comes the nearest to it is that which is made in Philadelphia. The American coal does not contain those products of coal-tar which the English coal does. The extremely fat coal of America contains little of the color-yielding properties. And, independently of that, the gas produced here, which is the main thing, is made differently from that which is made in London, and on account of this difference of manufacture the resultant product of coal-tar is quite different from the resultant product of coal-tar in London. The Philadelphia gas-works stick pretty closely to the use of coal only, but the factories of New York and around there do not, and, in fact, they have destroyed more or less the products in coal-tar.

Senator HISCOCK. You were going to take up the subject of brown alizarine when I asked my question.

Mr.PICKHARDT. I was going to say also-though that had no reference to your question-that by the production of anthracine out of coal-tar the coal tar is absolutely destroyed for the purposes that it is here generally used for, that is, for roofing. For roofing purposes coal-tar can not be used any more after anthracine has been distilled out of it. Many years ago we used to export benzole made here by people in New York. There is no more benzole exported at all. All that is made in this country is used for different purposes than those of making dyes. Senator ALDRICH. None used whatever for that purpose? Mr. PICKHARDT. None; absolutely none.

Senator HISCOCK. These Albany people use something else? Mr. PICKHARDT. They import the aniline, which is a product of benzole.

Senator ALDRICH. They import the aniline oil?

Mr. PICKHARDT. They import aniline oil, a product of benzole. At one time anthracine was made here; then it was very much higher in price than it is now. It was considered a profitable thing, but it turned out to be a losing thing. They can not separate the anthracine from the coal-tar, at the prices that have been prevailing for a long time, independently of the fact that they destroy the coal-tar for roofing purposes. There is no anthracine made in this country at all.

There is no importation of benzole. What is imported from Europe, for manufacturing some of the coal-tar dyes, is aniline, which is a product of benzole. There are large establishments in Germany making