3rd year's interest, 4th year's interest, 5th year's interest, 6th year's investment, 6th year's interest, 7th year's interest, 8th year's interest, 9th year's interest, 10th year's interest, 11th year's investment, 11th year's interest, 12th year's investment, 12th year's interest, 13th year's investment, 13th year's interest, 14th year's investment, 14th year's interest, 15th year's investment, 15th year's interest, 16th year's investment, 16th year's interest, 17th year's investment, 17th year's interest, 18th year's investment, 1,050,753 15 Jan. 1, 1860 President is one that 63,045 18 1,839,255 48 50,000 00 1,999,610 80 Jan. 1, 1867 2,169,587 44 Jan. 1, 1868 2,540,748 43 Jan. 1, 1870 2,743,193 33 Jan. 1, 1871 2,957,784 92 Jan. 1, 1872 3,185,252 01 Jan. 1, 1873 3,426,367 13 Jan. 1, 1874 3,681,949 15 Jan. 1. 1875 will afford me great pleaThe proposition of the sure to vote for. The gentleman from Nelson seems to misunderstand me in regard to the price obtained for our state bonds. I referred to the 1,163,798 33 Jan. 1, 1861 current prices of our stocks in the northern mar69,827 89 50,000,00 kets, and they in common with others sunk in the years '40 and '41, to about seventy cents on the dollar. The contractors to whom those 1,283,626 22 Jan. 1, 1862 stocks were paid were compelled, I know, to sell 76,997 57 them at a heavy loss. The other gentleman from Nelson, (Mr. C. A. Wickliffe,) seems to think that there is some ambiguity in the lan1,410,623 79 Jan. 1, 1863 guage of the thirty second section. It was not 84,637 42 1.545,261 21 Jan. 1, 1864 the intention of the committee to leave the least ambiguity in that section, and if it does exist it is not the fault of their intention. They intended not that the legislature each year should contract a debt amounting to $500,000, but that they should never in all time to come, contract a debt exceeding that amount, so as to make it a 1,687,926 88 Jan. 1, 1865 legislature, meeting for instance next year, might charge on the state. They intended that the 19th year's interest, 101,278 60 20th year's investment, 50,000 00 18th year's interest, 19th year's investment, contract a debt to the amount of $500,000 and pay it five years hence, if they chose, and then there would be left them a margin of $500,000 1,839,255 48 Jan. 1, 1866 again to contract debts as the public emergencies might require, but declaring in the constitution the benefits it has conferred on the people. It is the fine roads, the improved navigation, and means of getting to and from market. That is the way in which it is profitable to the people, and if there was not a cent of revenue derived from it, still it is a beneficial system to the country, so far as it developes its resources and increases its wealth and prosperity. That at least is my view of it. Before this turnpike system was entered upon, and the country was sparsely settled, we could not travel in those sections of the country where the soils are rich, until the middle of May. And are we then to have no more turnpike roads? To this it will be answered that they may be built by individual subscription. In that case the expense will fall on a few generous men, and those who use it most will pay the least. I desire that the legislature shall have the power to compel the miserly to bear their share in the burdens of the country, and not leave them to be borne by the more generous and liberal men. I am in favor of it. I want to pay the debt, alAs regards the proposition of the president, though I am ready to admit that a great deal of it was imprudently contracted. Ten years ago, when I attempted to point out some of the deMr. BARLOW. It meets not only my appro- fects of the system, such was its popularity that bation, but that of the people of my county, to the people were almost ready to hiss me from restrict the legislature in its power to involve the lobby. I found about here, some half a dozthe state in debt, and if I am instructed on any en little engineers with salaries of $600 to $1,one point in this convention, it is on that. And 000, and with nothing to do except to wait on these instructions were given me by my constitu- the great engineer, or to carry an order from one ents from the fact that the system of internal lock to another. And in some cases, the state improvements have created the debts which now itself engaged in cutting off timber by the river, exist and hang over them. I was a member of the instead of letting it out by contract, and there legislature about the time the system was com- were instances where it cost $600 or $800 per menced, and I invariably voted against it, and acre to do it, when the land and all would not took the occasion to speak against it when at have sold for one hundredth part of the money. home. I never voted for but one of these works, I attempted to point out these extravagancies at except on one occasion, and that was in obedi- the time, but I could not be heard, such was the ence to what I conceived to be the will of my blaze of glory in which the system was surrounconstituents, though my own feelings were well ded. But still I desired that the system should known to be in opposition to the system. It be carried on, and I believe that even under was an appropriation to that beautiful stream, these disadvantages it has been benefical and the Cumberland river, of some $200,000, of prosperous to the people. There is the Green which not a cent, if my recollection serves me, river, once dried up for whole seasons, and where was ever expended. And yet my constituents a steamboat was a rarity, the convenience afforwere willing to contribute their part to paying ded to the inhabitants amply repays all the exthe debt, and are not willing that it shall be re-pence incurred there. There are the fine turnpudiated. But at the same time, as a safeguard for the future, they desire that the legislature shall be restricted in its power of again involving the people in debt. pike roads, through the land, enabling people to get about, and improving the means of business and social intercourse, and which have taken the place of the miserable, and almost impassable Mr. TURNER. I never was a member of the dirt roads of former times. The same beneficial legislature but once, during the time the system results have been the consequence of the Kenof internal improvements was agitated, and then tucky river improvement. Why, the very reducI voted for it. I believe that system to have been tion in the price of groceries alone, to say nothbeneficial and profitable to the country, and I ing of the reduced price of transportation and never intend to give up anything because every the increased facilities of travel, would fully body is abandoning it, or because it becomes un-repay to the people, the increased taxation these popular. I was for it in its popularity, and I am for it still. I believe it to be a good system, and that the country will never get along unless it shall be fully carried out. Why, what is this system? I would rather pay my share of the tax for one year, than be obliged in going home to be three or four days floundering along on horseback through the mud. Gentlemen view this system only as to the amount of money it brings into the treasury, but that is not the way to judge of works have imposed on them. These are the advantages we derive, and they are worth double to the people, the money it cost to obtain them. I raise my voice against this wholesale denunciation of that system, which now seems to be so popular in this convention, and shall continue to advocate it, for the reasons I have given, if every other man in the country opposes it. I am for paying this debt, and for the amendment of the president, but I shall vote against the sections now under consideration. Not that I want the legislature to go into extravagances, but I hope that in fifty years time we shall have on our soil 3,000,000 of inhabitants, and are we to put a straight jacket upon their energies, so that they can do nothing in the way of improvement when the great emergencies of the country shall require it? Besides, the time may come when, as has been the fate of almost every land, we shall be visited with famine and desease, and to such an extent that the people will not be able to pay their taxes, and yet gentlemen talk about preventing the legislature from borrowing money to supply the deficiency. There are many emergencies which may arise to produce a deficiency In the revenue, and the legislature should have the power of supplying that deficiency. I suppose that the legislature will have some little discretion, and that we in this convention do not possess all the wisdom of the world. of the government, and then to borrow money to pay that debt; but should there be a deficit in the ordinary revenue of the country, then I am willing that the legislature shall borrow money to meet that emergency. Upon the subject of internal improvements, gentlemen are defining their positions, as if it was a matter of necessity to do so on the present occasion. I believe between the years '33 and '37 there was not an internal improvement appropriation that I did not vote for, and I do not regret a vote that I then gave. I believe I voted right, and I think so now. But I believe it is right now to meet the public sentiment of the country, that we should impose on future legislation a restriction against the borrowing and appropriation of money for internal improvements. The gentleman from Madison has spoken about turnpike roads in my county, and I should like to know how much stock he owns in them. Mr. TURNER. My stock is all in Madison county. own? Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. How much do you Mr. TURNER. About one thousand dollars of it. Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. Well, we are about in the same condition-I have unfortunately about twice as much as he. The PRESIDENT here modified his amend ment to read asfollows: The gentleman from Nelson (Mr. Hardin) has said that we are a great body of wise men, but that is all soft soap, and we know it. We do not, at any rate. stand so high in the estimation of those out of this convention, if one may judge from the newspapers. It is all a mistake about our being greater men than any who are to come after us. A week or two ago, when the question of fixing salaries was under consideration, gentlemen urged that the legislature was an illiberal body, and now we have the same gentlemen contending that it is a great deal too liberal. I think "The general assembly that shall first convene the legislature can be trusted upon this subject, under this constitution, shall set apart an anand I hope the section will not be adopted. nual sum of at least $50,000, of the public reveWith regard to submitting the question to the nue; which shall be the first to be paid, and propeople, before incurring large indebtedness, Ivide that the same and the surplus of the sinksee no objection. I have no objection to consult the people on this subject, and I believe they will not withhold their approval from any work of internal improvement that is calculated to enhance their convenience, their prosperity, or their wealth. I am not surprised that gentlemen from portions of the commonwealth where this system has never reached, should oppose it; but as for gentlemen who have fine turnpike roads running through their county and in their neighborhood, like the gentlemen from Nelson, that they should turn against and repudiate the system, I confess I am a little astonished. The elder gentleman, I know, stood here and warred against it for a good while, but if the junior gentleman (Mr. C. A. Wickliffe) did not sustain it, then my memory has failed me. Nor did I ever hear of the elder gentleman (Mr. Har din) making war on him for so doing. I think when a man has derived all the benefit possible from it to his county, he ought to be willing to extend the same benfits to the people of the whole state. A contrary course is hardly gener ous or proper. ing fund after paying the interest on the public debt, shall be faithfully applied to the purchase and withdrawal of the evidences of the debt of this commonwealth, until the whole of said debt shall be discharged: Provided, If the annual sum so appropriated, shall not be sufficient to discharge the debt as it shall become due, the general assembly shall have authority to create additional loans for the punctual payment of said debt: And, provided further, That the gen. eral assembly shall have authority, except as hereinafter provided, to contract other loans." Mr. JAMES. Many having availed themselves of this occasion to define their position in relation to the system of internal improvements, I shall take this opportunity to define mine. I have come here prepared to restrict the power of the legislature to run the state in debt, to the least possible amount. The safest criterion to judge of the future, is to look to the past history of the country; and acting upon this rule, I think there is no one but will concur in the propriety of imposing some stringent restriction on the debt creating power of Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. The amendment I have the legislature. I was in the legislature when proposed, is to make the section perform the office the system of internal improvements was origi. understand the committee to desire it should-nated, and even some years before. I first had that is, to limit the right of the legislature to borrow money to provide for deficits in the revenue-whether to $50,000 or $100,000, is a matter of total indifference to me. I therefore moved to strike out the words "to meet expenses not provided for." I do not wish to leave to the legislature the power to create debts not expected by the people to meet the ordinary expenses the honor of a seat in that body in the session of 1825-26, and was returned again in 1828. I continued four years in the house, and was then elected to the senate, where I continued until the year 1848. The first internal improvement project was made in the years 1828 and 29. There was then a surplus in the treasury, realized from the profits of the Bank of the Com state in an enormous debt, however anxious my section of country might have been to secure a small pittance, I should most certainly have voted against it. What was done at the succeeding session of the legislature? Why, the restriction requiring the appropriation of this money in fair proportions to the three grand divisions of the country, was repealed. But first let me call the attention of the convention to the twenty-seventh section of this bill: "SEC. 27. That not exceeding two hundred thousand dollars of the scrip authorized to be sold, shall be sold before the first day of Janua ry next; and not exceeding one-third of the residue shall be sold in each of the three following years; nor shall the governor subscribe for more stock annually, than he is hereby authorized to issue scrip for, as restrited by this act." monwealth and the Bank of Kentucky, and a proposition was made to distribute $200,000 of this surplus among the several counties, in proportion to the number of voters, for internal improvement purposes. I thought it a fair and equitable distribution. I was representing a section of country in which the Indian title had just been extinguished, and which is comprised of the territory west of the Tennessee river, known as "the purchase." The Indian title was extinguished in 1818, under what is known as Jackson's treaty, and after an examination of that location, 1821, concluding that it offered a fair opening for a young man to make a living, I removed thither with my family, in the year succeeding. Then, the only roads through that section of the country, were a few Indian trails; and down to 1828 and 1829 there were but few roads, and the country was still thinly settled. Gentlemen will see how well this act was The first settlers, for the want of bridges, were guarded. Of this million that was proposed to obliged to cross the streams on logs, or to swim be borrowed, not more than $200,000 could be their horses. No part of the commonwealth borrowed before the next session of the legisla was more in need of aid and assistance in these ture, and not exceeding one third of the residue respects, than that region of country. The bill could be borrowed in each of the three succeedof 1829, however, did not pass. In 1834, a ing years, and the governor could not go on and proposition originated in the house for the bor- subscribe for stock, so that not more than $200.rowing of a million of dollars. I was then rep-000 could be borrowed prior to 1836. resenting my district in the senate, and two rep- This is the extent of my sinning, if any I resentatives came to consult me at my room in have committed, on the subject of internal imrelation to it. They told me that the commit-provements. I have stated the circumstances tee had agreed to set apart for our section, the under which I was induced to go for this proceeds of the vacant lands then remaining measure, and I confess that even then, I had some there. I made some further enquiries as to the misgivings as to the consequences that were to purpose and provisions of the bill. and they ingrow out of it. formed me, as well as they could. I told them I would take the matter into consideration, and give them an answer during the next day. When came to examine it, I discovered that the bill proposed an equitable and just distribution of "SEC. 27. That the sum of five thousand dolthe money between the three grand divisions of lars be appropriated to the improvement of the state, and with a view of satisfying the com- Bayou du Chien; five thousand dollars be apmittee on that subject, allow me to read the four-propriated to the improvement of Clark's river; one thousand five hundred dollars be appro"SEC. 14. That the board of internal improve-priated to the improvement of Little Obion ment, in subscribing for stock under this act, and Mayfield's creek in the county of Hickman; in the several turnpike roads now chartered, or one thousand dollars be appropriated to the imwhich may be hereafter chartered, shall not sub-provement of Little Barren river: Provided, That scribe more than one-third of the sum hereby the board of internal improvement shall believe authorised to be borrowed, for the purpose of that the said improvements are expedient, and making such roads on the north side of Kentuc-will be of public benefit, and that the said sums ky river; and in like manner, not more than of money are necessary for those purposes; and one-third of the sum aforesaid, on roads, be- the sum of two thousand five hundred dollars tween the Kentucky and Green rivers; and in be appropriated out of the sales of the scrip of like manner, not more than one-third of the the state, shall be applied, under the direction aforesaid sums on roads on the south side of of said board, to the improvement of the navi Green river: Provided, That if the said board gation of Panther creek: Provided further, That of internal improvement should not be called it shall be the duty of the board of internal imon, according to the provisions of this act, to provement to have surveyed by a competent ensubscribe the full amount of money authorized gineer or engineers, all of the streams which to be borrowed under this act, for making turn- this act proposes improving, west of the Tenpike roads, within one year; then, and in that nessee river, within the mouths of May and Juue event, the aforesaid board of internal improve-next, and it shall be the duty of said engineer ment may subscribe the sum which may remain or engineers to make a report to the board of inunsubscribed, in turnpike roads in any part of ternal improvement, by the first day of Septemthis commonwealth where individuals or corpo- ber next, or as soon as practicable thereafter; and rate bodies may have subscribed and paid in if it shall appear from said report, that all or a the like amount which the said board of inter-part of said streams can be beneficially improved, nal improvement may be required to subscribe." I determined, upon due reflection, to give the bill my vote; but if I could have supposed that it was to lay the foundation for involving the teenth section of that bill: Well, after this restriction was taken off, what was the proposition made to the legislature? I will read from the act of 1836, the twenty-seventh section: the engineer shall report the plan and probable cost; upon which report said board of internal improvement shall proceed to lay the same under contract, and have said stream improved as ty declared that if my competitor was elected, property would go up, but if Ton James was returned, it would have a disastrous fall. If the system was carried on, men were told that the country would be chequered over with rail-roads and turnpikes, and that they would only have to roll their produce out of their barns, and in a moment it would be on its way to market. From that day I washed my hands of the internal improvement system, and I voted against every appropriation that came up. A good ma speedily as practicable, until the whole of the before several amounts shall be expended: And, provided further, That it shall be the duty of the board of internal improvement to cause the snags, drifts, and other obstructions in Panther creek to be removed before the same are submerged by the erection of the dams in Green river; and the amount appropriated to said stream by the act of the last session, shall not be absolute, but may be withheld by the board | of internal improvement, if they deem its ex penditure inexpedient, and not of sufficient pub-ny have given in their experience as to the operlic importance," The system had now fully developed itself to me, and I became satisfied that it was not to be carried out in good faith. I therefore voted against the bill, notwithstanding the representatives from my section took strong ground in favor of it, and denounced me for my course on my return home. I was satisfied that the design was to give to the centre and wealthy portions of the state the benefits of the appropriation, and that the promises held out to my section of the country were merely to secure their votes. If it was intended to give my county this $11,500, in good faith. why was not the appropriation at once made positive and specific, as in the case of the grant of $200,000 to the Lexington and Ohio railroad. ations in regard to the education fund, and the manner in which it was set apart and disposed of. My recollection is, that after the distribution of the United States surplus revenue and the reception by Kentucky of her share, there were two parties in the legislature-the internal improvement, and the education parties. I belonged then, and do still, to the education party, and I am opposed to improving the face of the country, at the expense of the minds and education of the children of the state. Finally the sum of $850,000 was set apart out of the United States deposite fund and pledged to the object of education, and the balance was appropriated to internal improvements. The system of internal improvements went on swallowing up million after million-not in Kentucky Well, as I have stated, I entered the senate in alone, but in all of the states of the Union, un1832, and I was a candidate for re-election in til the several states were indebted to the extent 1836. On one occasion while addressing the of some $200,000,000, the interest on which is people at Clark's river, I heard that the engineer $12,000,000, all of which went, not to our own was traveling up Clark's river for the purpose of citizens, but to the foreign capitalists. Those surveying it, and intended to go on towards capitalists had their agents in Wall street, New bayou du Chien. I went to him and he told me York, buying our stocks, the interest on which that he had examined that stream and thought was to be paid in gold and silver, to be transporwell of it. He said nothing more to me, but he ted across the water for the support of the naplaced in the hands of my competitor, an offi- bobs and aristocracy there. Well, in 1838, the cial report showing that $3000 was to be expend- credit of Kentucky was good at home and ed on that stream. It was not used publicly, abroad, but in 1839 our bonds could not be sold, but generally in a private and secret manner. we never having authorized their sale at less And I took the occasion theu to tell the people than their par value. Then it was that provisthat they would never get a dollar, and though Iion was made that the contractors should take am no prophet or the son of a prophet, yet the prediction has been fully verified. I do believe that engineer was sent there on that occasion for the purpose of engineering Tom James out of the senate. them at their par value. They received them, but were unable to hold them, owing to the demands upon them for compensation to their laborers and for their materials. What was the resnit? Why they had to go to the brokers and Mr. HARDIN. Name the engineer. sell our bonds at from fifteen to twenty-five per Mr. JAMES. His name is Buford, and I be- cent. discount. It was not right, but the contraclieved it then and I believe it at this day. I had tors were forced to take those bonds or nothing, discovered the workings of the system, and was and though they have been knocking at opposing its being carried out. Though I live the door of your legislature for relief, the relief between two of the streams that were to be im- has never been extended to them. The banks proved, yet I was not to be bought up, and I were appealed to for relief, and they loaned to had the nerve to vote against it. And thank the board of internal improvement several hunGod my constituency sustained me for it, al-dred thousand dollars, and thereby greatly inthough they never knew that they would not get the appropriation until after the election was over. I can only account for being thus sustained in the face of the opposition against me, from the fact that my constituency had an abiding confidence in the honesty and purity of my motives, and believed, deeply identified as my interests were with theirs, that I was governed solely in my action by a sincere regard for the public good. I do not charge improper motives on any body, for the whole country was inflamed with the internal improvement fever, and men in my coun creased their circulation. These contractors and laborers were mostly foreigners, and not wanting Kentucky money, they sold it to brokers, who made a rush on the banks, and thus forced those institutions to suspend. Kentucky was engaged in an unfortunate and wasteful system of internal improvements, and the school moneys were invested in the bonds for the construction of those works, most of them bearing five per cent interest. Mr. C. A. WICKLIFFE. The education fund was invested before 1839 and 1840, in the second or third loan made. |