Commissioner ANDERSON. The report will show the exact figures. Q. Do you remember whether the amount received by you was between a million and a half and two million of dollars, as your share or your portion of those bonds ?-A. I should think it was not as much as a million and a half. I know that whatever they were, I sold them and used the money for other public improvements.

Q. Can you ascertain for us the amount of land-grant bonds that you received in 1874 and 1875-A. I do not believe I could. I no doubt counted them at the time and found them correct. Whenever I got a chance to sell them I sold them and used the money, as I have said for public improvements.

PECULIAR METHOD OF BOOKKEEPING.

Q. Did you keep any books showing the amount of bonds held by you?-A. No; I always kept little memoranda and when I sold any bonds they were crossed off and after a certain time transferred to other memoranda. I have carried my own personal matters largely in my hat.

Q. Do you know of a book showing the amount of interest received by you on the land-grant bonds in 1874 and 1875, while you held those bonds?-A. No; I do not believe I would have any. I do not know why I should, as I should simply go and collect the coupons as anybody else would do, and paid my debts with the money.

CONTRACTS FOR CONSTRUCTION OF CENTRAL PACIFIC.

Q. Did you know anything of a contract made with Crocker & Co. for the construction of the Central Pacific from section 31 to 138?— A. No; I did not. The first contract that was let to him, I think, was for 18 miles. I used to go to California about once a year, and staid but a few days. My business was here. Mr. Crocker had a contract, as I remember, of eighteen sections from Sacramento, and then contracts were made with six or eight parties for about 13 miles more. Afterwards our people wrote something about letting the balance of the contract, to the State line, to Mr. Crocker, but I was opposed to it, although I forget what I said. I was told that the smaller contractors had quarreled with each other and there was trouble about getting labor; the men on the upper section would go to Sacramento to get men for the work, but it was pleasanter on the lower section and contractors there would scoop those men in as they were going on to the work on the other section. There were many complaints of that kind. They said that they were satisfied from the condition of the labor market that it would be better to concentrate the work in one party's hands. They convinced me that that was better and it was done; but I was not there and I know very little of the details. I remember the general features.

CONTRACT WITH MR. CROCKER.

Q. I refer now to the contract which Mr. Crocker did get. Do you know anything about the cost of construction of the portion of the work from section 31 to section 138-the cost to Mr. Crocker?-A. No; I do not. It was immense, though. He complained very bitterly, and I think our people helped him to the extent of their ability every way they could. He was expecting to get some one in with him, and I think

above operating expenses?-A. That I could not say. It would depend upon a good many things. If it were running independent of everybody else it would be very likely to get hurt. There are narrowgauge roads running in Nevada, which if in unfriendly hands would be likely to turn much of the trade of Nevada away from the Central Pacific. We have endeavored to protect the interests of the Central Pacific in every way. I think that Government bonds to run one hundred and twenty years, at a rate of interest that the company could pay, and at the same time liquidate the principal, could have been sold in the last two years.

PLAN OF SETTLEMENT.

Q. On that subject will you please state to the Commission as fully as you desire any suggestion you have to make with regard to any scheme or plan of adjusting the debt existing from your company to the United States?-A. To work that out would take me at least a month of such time as I could spare from my current work, and I will do it. I think a plan could be arranged if we could have any guarantee that the Government would keep faith with the company, and not do as they have done heretofore.

Commissioner ANDERSON. The idea that this Commission has of the purpose for which it was called into being is to secure just these explanations that you refer to, and we are desirous of receiving from you any explanation that you or any other officer of the company can give

us.

Mr. COHEN. I would suggest, in reply to that, that before you close your labors, Mr. Huntington make some suggestions in writing, and you can annex it to his testimony.

Commissioner ANDERSON. We want it for use within ten or fifteen

days.

Mr. COHEN. You shall have it within fifteen days.

The WITNESS. I do not know as to that. I have some ideas about that.

SUGGESTIONS REQUESTED FROM WITNESS AS TO PLAN OF SETTLE

MENT.

Commissioner ANDERSON. What the Commission desire of Mr. Hunt ington is his suggestions upon : (1) The desirability of a change from a percentage of net earnings to a payment of a fixed sum; (2) his idea of a change in regard to the extension of the period for payment; (3) his idea of a change with regard to the annual percentage or interest that should be charged, or which the company could pay; (4) any suggestion with regard to the commutation rate by which the whole obligation could be discharged at once, and the relations between the Government and the company absolutely and completely divorced; (5) any light that he can shed upon the question of how much security and what kind of security the Government has now for its debt, and what could be done to increase or enlarge the securities which it holds. The WITNESS. If it were capitalized and put into a fixed amountinterest and all-with payments to be made every six months, or at some other fixed time, then of course the security would be growing better all the time, because the property itself will be increasing in value. as the years roll by, while the amount of indebtedness would be steadily decreasing. Most of the great roads of this country have, I believe, a

bonded debt to-day of greater amount than they had when they were first built.

Commissioner ANDERSON. I have no other question to ask Mr. Hunt

ington.

HANDWRITING OF WITNESS.

By Mr. COHEN:

Q. You have been questioned to day in relation to certain letters that you wrote, none of which has been exhibited to you; and you have doubted whether the copies which have been read to you were fair and true transcripts of the letters which you wrote. I ask you what is the general character of your handwriting. Is it easily read?-A. I used to flatter myself that I could write a letter in half the time that it would take the other party to read it.

Q. Were you acquainted with Horace Greeley in his lifetime?-A. I

was.

Q. Is your handwriting something like his? He said his writing could always be read when it was on the back of a note, but could not be read in a letter?-A. I have seen his writing, and I think it was worse than mine.

HIS REFERENCE TO THE CHARACTER OF CONGRESS.

Q. In one of these letters you speak of the "agragrian" character of Congress. Was not the opinion which you then formed, and which you expressed in that letter, derived from the members of what you have termed the "Third House," rather than from your own observation ?— A. I do not remember the language that I used exactly; but I did not mean to be understood as saying that anything like a majority, or a respectable minority, of Congress were of that class; but I have no doubt that some of the members could be so classed.

THE SANTA MONICA ROAD.

Q. In purchasing the Los Angeles Railroad from Senator Jones did you purchase it at the lowest price you could?-A. I did. I bought the road from him just as I would buy a road from Mr. Cohen. I bought it as low as I could. I thought then, as I do now, that it was a good purchase.

Q. You did not pay any more for the road because Mr. Jones was a Senator than you would have paid if he had not filled any public position, did you?-A. No. In fact, the road was cheap at the price we paid for it-something less than one-third of what it cost to build, as I remember.

RATE OF INTEREST PAID.

Q. You were questioned about a statement contained in one of your letters as to the rate of interest which you paid. State to the Commission the rate of interest which you paid in California on money that you borrowed for the purpose of constructing the road; and the rate of interest you paid on the indebtedness you had incurred in such construction, which remained after you had used the bonds issued by the road, and the bonds issued by the Government ?-A. I could not say at this time. We paid the current rate of interest in California, which, I think. when we first commenced, was 1 to 13 per cent. per month. We bough gold here at a very large premium to pay for our labor. We paid go

for interest on our million and a half of 7 per cent. bonds, for which I paid at one time 222 in currency.

Q How long did the rate of interest remain as high as 1 per cent. in California; until what year?-A. It would be difficult to give the date. I know that in 1849 we used to lend money for 10 per cent. per month. It went down to 5 in a year or two afterwards, and continued to fall by degrees until it reached 10 per cent. per annum, which is now, I believe, the legal interest in California.

Commissioner LITTLER. In what year was it that you paid 222 premium on gold?

The WITNESS. I can not say now; but I could tell by looking over the price list of gold here. I bought it in the open board.

Mr. COHEN. I have the price list of gold during all that time, if you want it entered on the minutes.

The WITNESS. I sold $40,000 here for Huntington & Hopkins for 279, I think.

FINANCIAL STANDING OF HUNTINGTON, HOPKINS & CO.

Q. You have spoken in your testimony, given before this Commission some weeks ago, of your guaranteeing some of the bonds which you sold-of their being guaranteed by Huntington, Hopkins & Co. State to the Commission what was the financial standing of Huntington, Hopkins & Co. at the time you commenced the construction of the Central Pacific road?-A. I flatter myself that there was not a better financial house in the world-for anything that we wanted. I had some paper out in this town in 1837, and I believe that I never had a piece of paper go to protest, and Huntington & Hopkins stood A-1.

Q. Mr. Crocker has stated that at the time he went into the construction of this road he was worth over $200,000. What was the finan cial rating at that time of Huntington & Hopkins?-A. I believe that I could have got $1,000,000 well enough on our credit, in our legitimate business.

Q. I am speaking of your property. How much property had youin money or money's worth ?-A. I should say that we had $500,000 or $600,000. We had not enough to build the Pacific road.

MR. STANFORD'S FINANCIAL CONDITION.

Q. Can you state the condition of Mr. Stanford's finances at the time that he entered into the work of building this road?-A. In a general way. I believe that every member of the company came in at my personal solicitation. I spent many evenings until a late hour, after getting through my regular business, in going to see men, and I went to see only those who were thrifty, and whom I believed to be safe business men. I spent several evenings at Governor Stanford's house, and he finally said that he would go in. I should have said that the house of Stanford Brothers was then worth up in the hundred thousand several times. I wanted to get him to come in because he was a good business man, and a clean man in all respects. I should have said that Mr. Crocker was worth more than $200,000. He was doing a thrifty business, and I counted him one of the best business men in California. His integrity was never questioned.

MR. HUNTINGTON'S METHOD OF SIGNING CHECKS.

Q. You were asked about several payments being charged to Isaac E. Gates, those payments appearing upon vouchers that you sent to

California. Are not all, or almost all, of the checks signed by you drawn to the order of Isaac E. Gates? Are not your checks printed to the order of Isaac E. Gates, and then issued by him as occasion may require-A. They are. I often sign two or three thousand checks at a time. They are printed to the order of Isaac E. Gates, and I usually take some books to my home and sign the checks after I get through with my work for the day. I sign most of my checks there. As they are printed to the order of Mr. Gates it is safe so to sign them.

HOW THE COMPANY EXPECTED TO PAY ITS DEBT TO THE GOVERNMENT.

Q. You have been asked to make some suggestions with reference to a settlement of the claim of the Government against the Central Pacific and the Western Pacific roads. When the Central Pacific signed its acceptance of the terms of the act of 1862, was it not your understanding that the Government would look to the transportation to be done by the Central Pacific for the payment of the principal and interest of the bonds which it had advanced to aid in the construction of that road?—A. It was thought they would be paid in that way. I think that we thought that the earnings of the Government-that is, for the work that the Government would need to have done by the roadswould more than pay the interest, and in time, in fact, liquidate the principal. I do not think that we expected, or that when the bill was passed in Congress that Congress expected, there would be any money paid excepting the 5 per cent on the net earnings; the balance would be paid in services. The expenses of the Government were very large, as the Government records will show, before the road was built; and we, at least I, supposed that the earnings from the Government business would be sufficient to meet all these payments.

POLICY ADOPTED TOWARD THE INDIANS.

The Indians were very troublesome there before the road was built, and after that we took care of them. That cut off all source of income of that kind. The chief of the Piute Indians said that he had 3,000 warriors, and they were very troublesome. Indeed, in one battle at the Big Meadows, our troops under Major Ormsby lost 175 men. After our road was built we negotiated with the Indians. We gave the old chief a pass, good on passenger cars, and we told our men to let the common Indians ride on the freight trains whenever they saw fit. We treated them kindly and our men are doing so to this day. I know that I said to the chief that they must take care of the railway and we would take care of them. They have been very friendly ever since; and in more than one case they have given the company notice of washouts on the road. It was so with the Shoshone Indians. Mr. Crocker sent for the chief, made a treaty with him. He stipulated that if they would take care of us we would take care of them, and we have had no trouble with them since. The forts and military stations that the Government had along this line, in the Great Basin, have been removed. The Government paid for taking barley over to Fort Churchhill 40 cents per pound, and other supplies at like rates. I have never agreed with the Government as its Indian policy. I have always thought that kind treatment v win their good-will, and I think so now. At any rate the Gove has not needed any troops to take care of the Indians on our road since we built the road.

PR VOL VII--10