The mode of constituting the second branch being under consideration, the word" national" was struck out, and "United States" inserted.

Mr. GORHAM inclined to a compromise as to the rule of proportion. He thought there was some weight in the objections of the small States. If Virginia should have sixteen votes, and Delaware with several other States together sixteen, those from Virginia would be more likely to unite than the others, and would therefore have an undue influence. This remark was applicable not only to States, but to counties or other districts of the same State. Accordingly the Constitution of Massachusetts, had provided that the representatives of the larger districts should not be in an exact ratio to their numbers; and experience, he thought, had shown the provision to be expedient.

He

Mr. READ. The States have heretofore been in a sort of partnership. They ought to adjust their old affairs before they opened a new account. brought into view the appropriation of the cominon interest in the western lands to the use of particular States. Let justice be done on this head; let the fund be applied fairly and equally to the discharge of the general debt; and the smaller States, who had been injured, would listen then, perhaps, to those ideas of just representation which had been held out.

Mr. GORHAM could not see how the Convention could interpose in the case. Errors he allowed had been committed on the subject. But Congress were now using their endeavours to rectify them. The best remedy would be such a government as would

have vigor enough to do justice throughout. This was certainly the best chance that could be affordto the smaller States.

Mr. WILSON. The question is, shall the members of the second branch be chosen by the Legislatures of the States? When he considered the amazing extent of country-the immense population which is to fill it-the influence of the Government we are to form will have, not only on the present generation of our people and their multiplied posterity, but on the whole globe, he was lost in the magnitude of the object. The project of Henry IV. and his statesmen, was but the picture in miniature of the great portrait to be exhibited. He was opposed to an election by the State Legislatures. In explaining his reasons it was necessary to observe the twofold relation in which the people would stand,-first, as citizens of the General Government; and secondly, as citizens of their particular State. The General Government was meant for them in the first capacity: the State Governments in the second. Both governments were derived from the people-both meant for the people—both therefore ought to be regulated on the same principles. The same train of ideas which belonged to the relation of the citizens to their State Governments, were applicable to their relation to the General Government; and in forming the latter we ought to proceed by abstracting as much as possible from the idea of the State Governments. With respect to the province and object of the General Government they should be considered as having no existence. The election of the second branch by the Legislatures will introduce

and cherish local interests and local prejudices. The General Government is not an assemblage of States, but of individuals, for certain political purposes; it is not meant for the States, but for the individuals composing them; the individuals, therefore, not the States, ought to be represented in it. A proportion in this representation can be preserved in the second, as well as in the first, branch; and the election can be made by electors chosen by the people for that purpose. He moved an amendment to that effect; which was not seconded.

Mr. ELLSWORTH saw no reason for departing from the mode contained in the Report. Whoever chooses the member, he will be a citizen of the State he is to represent; and will feel the same spirit, and act the same part, whether he be appointed by the people or the Legislature. Every State has its particular views and prejudices, which will find their way into the general council, through whatever channel they may flow. Wisdom was one of the characteristics which it was in contemplation to give the second branch,-would not more of it issue from the Legislatures than from an immediate election by the people? He urged the necessity of maintaining the existence and agency of the States. Without their co-operation it would be impossible to support a republican government over so great an extent of country. An army could scarcely render it practicable. The largest States are the worst governed. Virginia is obliged to acknowledge her incapacity to extend her government to Kentucky. Massachusetts cannot keep the peace one hundred miles from from her capital, and is now forming an army for its

support. How long Pennsylvania may be free from a like situation, cannot be foreseen. If the principles and materials of our Government are not adequate to the extent of these single States, how can it be imagined that they can support a single government throughout the United States? The only chance of supporting a General Government lies in grafting it on those of the individual States.

Doctor JOHNSON urged the necessity of preserving the State Governments, which would be at the mercy of the General Government on Mr. WILSON'S plan.

Mr. MADISON thought it would obviate difficulty if the present Resolution were postponed, and the eighth taken up, which is to fix the right of suffrage in the second branch.

Mr. WILLIAMSON professed himself a friend to such a system as would secure the existence of the State Governments. The happiness of the people depended on it. He was at a loss to give his vote as to the Senate until he knew the number of its members. In order to ascertain this, he moved to insert, after "second branch of the National Legislature," the words, "who shall bear such proportion to the number of the first branch as one to He was not seconded.

Mr. MASON. It has been agreed on all hands that an efficient government is necessary; that, to render it such, it ought to have the faculty of self-defence; that to render its different branches effectual, each of them ought to have the same power of self-defence. He did not wonder that such an agreement should have prevailed on these points. He only wondered

that there should be any disagreement about the necessity of allowing the State Governments the same self-defence. If they are to be preserved, as he conceived to be essential, they certainly ought to have this power; and the only mode left of giving it to them was by allowing them to appoint the second branch of the National Legislature.

Mr. BUTLER, observing that we were put to difficulties at every step by the uncertainty whether an equality or a ratio of representation would prevail finally in the second branch, moved to postpone the fourth Resolution, and to proceed to the eighth Resolution on that point. Mr. MADISON seconded him.

On the question,-New York, Virginia, South Carolina, Georgia, aye-4; Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina, no-7.

On a question to postpone the fourth, and take up the seventh, Resolution,-Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, aye-5; Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, no-6.

On the question to agree, "that the members of the second branch be chosen by the individual Legislatures,"-Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, aye-9; Pennsylvania, Virginia, no-2.239

It must be kept in view that the largest States, particularly Pennsylvania and Virginia, always considered the choice of the second branch by the State Legislatures as opposed to a proportional representation, to which they were attached as a fundamental principle of just government. The smaller States, who had opposite views, were reinforced by the members from the large States most anxious to secure the importance of the State Governments.