ANNEX I. LORD HOBHOUSE ON THE LEGAL POSITION OF THE GREAT FOREST. Before we went to Parliament with the Bill of 1893, I consulted my old friend, Lord Hobhouse, now, alas! no more, as to the position legally held by the Commoners, and the course they ought to take under the circumstances. He was, it will be remembered, chosen Arbitrator in the great Epping Forest case, and was well known to be a man of great experience, with a trained judicial mind, and of the highest character. He was good enough to write me the following letter : [COPY.] "GREAT FOREST OF BRECON. "15, Bruton Street, W., "Oct. 30, 1890. "My dear Lloyd, "I have perused the documents relating to Brecon Forest, and can form a tolerably clear idea of the legal position of things. I do not think that an examination of the Award would be of use, except as to boundaries or other details not at this moment in question. The Act of 1818 (Secs. 8 and 12) shows what is to follow on the making of an Award; and it is sufficient for the present purpose that in fact an Award has been made, allowing to the Crown a moiety of the residue left after providing for the enormous expenses. In the Crown's moiety the Commoners have now no interest at all. "With regard to the Commoners' moiety, I think that the legal freehold which was vested in the Crown in 1815 has never been displaced. The only alternative to this conclusion is that the Act of 1818 vested the freehold in the Commoners, either as a Corporation, or severally as tenants in common. Such is not the literal reading of Sec. 12, and it is highly improbable that any such effect could be intended by an Act which was destroying the machinery created in 1815 for ascertaining the respective interests to which the various Commoners were entitled. It was, indeed, possible under the two Acts to enquire who was a Commoner, and to make a complete list of Commoners. But I do not gather from your statement that any such thing was done. It is worth while to consult the records of the Brecon Clerk of the Peace on this point; though, if he has any final Award, the Office of Woods ought to have a copy (see Sec. 17 of the Act of 1818), and they deny the possession of any such document. Taking the Crown as a freeholder, it has no beneficial interest in the surface of the soil. It retains such rights to mines as it possessed prior to the Award (see Sec. 17). But all forestal or manorial rights of common and so forth are completely abrogated. Sec. 12. "I think then that, subject to its own right to get minerals, the Crown is under an obligation to allow the Commoners to enjoy the land. And any purchaser of the interests of the Crown would be in the same position as the Crown itself. 1 Lord Hobhouse was not fully informed by me on this point when he wrote. As a matter of fact, a Complete List of Commoners had been made by the Commissioners. : "The legal position is a very singular one quite unique in my experience. As long as the land remains in statu quo, there is no more difficulty about the enjoyment of it than there was before the Enclosure Acts. But the moment you want to alter the status, there is difficulty which seems to be insuperable by law. You are not like copyholders with a Manor Court. You have no trust, with powers of management. You have no Elective Corporation or Board, where a majority may bind a minority. You are not even in the ordinary case of owners of open lands, because here is a Statute which declares that the land shall remain open and unenclosed for the benefit of the several members of the body of Commoners according to their several rights. On this last point, if enclosure is desired, the Land Commissioners should be consulted. They will be able to say much more accurately than I am whether their powers extend to this peculiar case. Or even if enclosure is not desired, their vast experience in the matter of open lands may enable them to refer to some similar case, or to make some useful suggestion. And if they can assist, their goodwill and courtesy will not be found wanting. "Reverting to the position of the Commoners, it seems to me impossible that they can do anything to alter it, unless they all concur in action, and that is generally found impossible with a large number of people: morally impossible because of the conflict of wills, or legally impossible because of various disabilities. "I have not the least idea what is the most beneficial course for the Commoners: though from your printed statement I gather that they cannot enjoy the property in specie, and under such circumstances it is generally best to sell and divide the money. But for this purpose-and I conceive for any other active purpose-an Act of Parliament. will be necessary. The only course I think is, by meetings or otherwise, to agree on some plan of utilising the land, which shall be approved of by a preponderant portion of Commoners, in number or value, or both, and then to apply to the Legislature. It seems to me that there is a strong moral obligation on the Crown to give such help, if any, as it can with propriety; and probably the Office of Woods will be found to acknowledge that. But perhaps as the Commoners are absolute beneficial owners of all except the mines, and the Crown (or its successor by purchase) bas the mines only, the Crown cannot give much help, except in respect of the bare legal freehold left vested in it after the Award, and possibly not parted with since. "It will be remembered that I do not know the terms of the sale of the Crown's rights. For the immediate purpose it is not necessary to know them. But they affect the question in whom the legal freehold is vested. Nor do I know whether there are manors within the Forest, though it appears (Act of 1815, Sec. 15) that some of the ancient tenements, in respect of which common rights were claimed, were or might be of copyhold tenure. If the rights of common in the Forest are claimed through tenements (freehold or copyhold) held of manors within the Forest, vested in persons other than the Crown, whose manorial rights I hold to be extinct, it would introduce another element into the question, what is the legal position of the Commoners? But I do not think it would do anything to weaken-perhaps it would strengthen-the opinion that nothing can be done without an Act of Parliament. I am afraid my lucubrations will not give you much comfort; but it seems to me that the advisers of the Commoners in 1815 and '18 did not know what they were about, and so an imbroglio occurs. "Very truly yours, "(Sgd.) HOBHOUSE." ANNEX II. LEASE OF THE MINERALS IN PART OF THE GREAT FOREST, 1804. By the courtesy of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, we have been enabled to have a copy of this lease to Mr. Johnes, of Hafod, co. Cardigan, of the minerals in that part of the Great Forest to the west of the Llia brook, dated August 31, 1804. This document is of great length, extending to 160 folios, and we have omitted several clauses relating to matters of account, etc., between the parties, contenting ourselves with a summary of such. The Lease has a special importance, in that it separates as a distinct property the minerals of the Great Forest from the agistment claims of which we have heard so much, and also in that it refers to the western side of the Great Forest only; and we are not aware that the minerals in the eastern portion of the Forest, that is, east of the Llia brook, were ever leased by the Crown previously to the Inclosure of 1815-19. Possibly it had been ascertained and known as a fact by the Crown and intending lessees, that there were not, except liemstone and ordinary quarry stone, anything in the nature of a mineral in the eastern part of the forest. ENDORSEMENT ON LEASE. Demise to Thos. Johnes, Esquire, of the Mines and Veins of Lead Ore, Tin, Copper, and other Ores, Metals, Minerals, and Mineral substances, Fossils and Fossil Substances, Coal and Coal Mines, Quarries, Rocks, and Beds of Spar Clay, Tile, Limestone, Ironstone, Slate and other stone whatsoever within, under, or upon the Lands belonging to His Majesty lying within the Great Forest of Brecknock in the County aforesaid. To hold for a term of 31 years from the tenth day of October, 1800. And the several duties of one shilling for every Ton of stone Coal, fourpence for every ton of Culm, and one shilling for every ton of iron-stone to be raised and gotten out of the said Premises as within mentioned. And such further sum and sums of money as shall be equal to one full tenth part of all Lead Ore, Tin, Copper, and other Ores, Metals, Minerals, and Mineral Substances, fossils and fossil substances, Spar, Clay, Tile, Limestone, Slate, and other stone whatsoever (except Stone, Coal, Culm, and iron-stone) to be raised and gotten as aforesaid. Without Fine. Trinity Term, 44th Geo. III, 31st August, 1804. THIS INDENTURE, made 31st August, in the 44th year of the Reign of Our Sovereign Lord George the Third by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, And in the year of Our Lord, 1804. Between the King's Most Excellent Majesty of the one part and Thomas Johnes of Hafod, in the County of Cardigan, Esquire, of the other part. Witnesseth that for and in consideration of the rents, reservations, sums, and duties hereinafter reserved, and of the covenants, provisoes, and agreements hereinafter mentioned and contained on the part and behalf of the said Thomas Johnes, his ex'ors., adm'ors, aud assigns, to be paid, done, observed, and performed, His said Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of his right trusty and well-beloved Counsellor William Pitt, Esquire, first Commissioner of the Treasury of Great Britain and Chancellor and Under Treasurer of the Exchequer, his trusty and well-beloved George Percy, Esquire (commonly called Lord Louvaine), his trusty and well-beloved James Edward Harris, Esquire (commonly called Viscount Fitzharris), his right trusty and well-beloved Counsellor Charles Long, Esquire, and his trusty and well beloved George Spencer, Esquire (commonly called Marquis of Blandford), Commissioners of the said Treasury, Hath demised and granted and by these presents Doth demise and grant unto the said Thomas Johnes, his ex'ors., adm'ors., and assigns All and singular the mines and veins of Lead Ore, Tin, Copper, and other ores, metals, minerals, and mineral substances, fossils and fossil substances, coal and coal mines, quarris (sic), rocks, and beds of spar, clay, tile, limestone, iron-stone, slate and other stone whatsoever found, gained, dug or opened, or hereafter to be found, gained, dug or opened within, under, or upon All those Lands belonging to His Majesty lying within and being part of the Great Forest of Brecknock in the County of Brecknock, containing in length from east to west eight miles or thereabouts, and in breadth from north to south three miles or thereabouts, be the length or breadth thereof more or less, bounded on the west part thereof by the River Turch, and extending from the said River along the South west boundary of the said Forest to the River Tawe, and thence along the south boundary of the said Forest to the River Neath, and thence along the same boundary to the River Velty, otherwise Melty, and bounded on the east part thereof by the said River Velty, otherwise Melty, and a brook called Llya Brook, and on the north part thereof by the summits of the Lands in the said Forest which divide the waters falling into the River Uske from those falling into the said Rivers Neath and Tawe. Together with full and free liberty, licence, power, and authority to and for the said Thomas Johnes, his executors, administrators, and assigns, and his and their agent or agents with or without miners, workmen, and others from time to time, and at all times during the continuance of this present demise to dig and open the ground and soil, and to bore, sink, sough, delve, try, search for, get, and take all and every the ores, metals, minerals, and mineral substances, fossils and fossil substances, coal, spar, clay, tile, limestone, iron-stone, slate and other stone, which now are or hereafter shall be, found or discovered within, upon, or under the said Lands or any part thereof, and to dig, sink, open, make, and drive such and so many pits, quarries, shafts, trenches, watercourses, sumps, gates, levels, drifts, and soughs in, through, under, upon, and over all or any part or parts thereof as he or they shall find or judge necessary, useful, expedient, or convenient for finding, discovering, winning, getting, and working any such ores, metals, minerals, and mineral substances, fossils and fossil substances, coal, spar, clay, tile, lime-stone, ironstone, slate, and other stone, or for drawing off and conveying water, earth, deads, and rubbish, from or out of all or any of the works which shall or may by virtue of this present demise be opened, made, or carried on in or upon the said premises or any part thereof. And also to set up, build, erect, and make, alter, direct, turn, or vary, repair, and amend, use, and enjoy in, upon, or under the said Lands, or any part thereof, All such Mills, Warehouses, Smelting-houses, kilns, smithies, workshops, stables, and other buildings, fire and other engines, pumps, machines, and devices, banks, embankments, watercourses, canals, trenches, wydraughts, watergates, dams, drains, sluices, railways, roads, ways, paths, passages, walls, fences, gates, and other conveniences as may be necessary for opening, working, draining, managing, maintaining, carrying on, and using the said mines, quarries, works, and premises, and for weighing or measuring, washing, cleansing or dressing, calcining, melting, smelting, burning, charring or otherwise converting or rendering merchantable and fit for sale in ore, metal, or other usual state. All and every the said Lead, ore, tin, copper, and other ores, metals, minerals and mineral substances, fossils and fossil substances, coal, spar, clay, tile, lime-stone, iron-stone, slate and other stone, and for selling and disposing thereof, and for carting and carrying away or removing the same or any part thereof, upon, from, or out of the said premises, or any part thereof. And also to dig, get up, and take in, upon, or out of the said Premises, or any part thereof, All such stones, sods, clay, earth, and other materials as may be necessary or requisite for making, building, maintaining, and repairing any such erections and buildings, engines, machines, and devices, appurtenances, and conveniences as before mentioned, or any of them, or for making, maintaining, and repairing all and every the roads, ways, paths or passages whatsoever, into, upon, from, or out of the said mines, quarries, works, and premises, or any of them, and from time to time during the continuance of this present demise at his and their free will and pleasure, to take down, remove, and carry away all and every or any of such erections, buildings, engines, pumps, machines, devices, and conveniences as shall or may be brought upon and set up, built, erected, made, or used in, upon, or within the said Lands and Premises or any part thereof, together with all implements, stores, materials, tools and other things whatsoever thereto belonging, or which shall be brought upon, kept, or used in or upon the said premises, or any part thereof, and with full and free liberty of heap room, pit room, and store room in, upon, or within the said premises, or any part thereof, together with full and free liberty for the said Thomas Johnes, his ex'ors, adm'ors, and assigns, and his and their Agents, workmen, and servants, with or without horses and other beasts of draught or lading, waggons, carts, and other carriages from time to time during the continuance of this present demise to pass and repass into, upon, through, from, or out of the said premises for all or any of the purposes before mentioned, or otherwise for discovering and opening such mines and quarries as aforesaid, and for the better enjoying, removing, taking, and carrying away and converting all or any part of the produce thereof to his or their own use and benefit, or for selling or disposing of the same, and further to do, perform, and execute all and every or any other act, matter, or thing which shall or may be necessary or expedient in the premises. Save and except that no pit or shaft, trench, or other work, nor any engine, machine, or building shall be made, sunk, or erected within fifty yards of any part of any messuage, dwelling-house, or outbuilding of or belonging to any Person or Persons whomsoever without a licence or consent in writing from the owner and occupier of such messuage, dwelling-house, or outbuilding respectively for that purpose first had and obtained. And also except and always reserved out of this present demise, All royal mines of gold and silver, and all other mines, minerals, and quarries within, upon, or under the said Premises, or any part or parcel thereof heretofore demised or granted by His Majesty, or any of his Royal Predecessors for terms of years or other estates as yet unexpired or unforfeited, if any such there be, with full power to enter upon, work, use, and enjoy the same, and every of them, as fully and effectually to all intents and purposes as if this present demise had not been made. To have and to hold all and singular the said mines and veins of lead, ore, tin, copper, and other ores, metals, minerals, and mineral substances, fossils, and fossil substances, coal and coal mines, quarries, rocks, and beds of spar, clay, tile, limestone, ironstone, slate, and other stone whatsoever, and all and singular the liberties, powers, privileges, and premises herein before expressed to be hereby demised with their and every of their Appurtenances (except as before excepted) unto the said Thomas Johnes, his ex'ors, adm'ors, and assigns, from the 10th day of October, which was in the year of our Lord 1800, for and during and unto the full end and term of 31 years thence next ensuing, and fully to be compleat and ended (subject nevertheless to the provisoes and agreements hereinafter contained for determining the same). Yielding and Paying therefore yearly and every year during the continuance of the said term hereby granted unto the King's Majesty, His Heirs and Successors, for and in respect of the said premises herein before expressed to be hereby demised the rents or sums hereinafter mentioned to be paid and payable into the hands of His Majesty's Bailiff or Receiver-General for the time being of the said Premises hereby demised or at or into the receipt of His Majesty's Exchequer at Westminster, at or upon the days or times following, that is to say, for the first 4 years of the said term hereby granted, ending on the 10th day of October next ensuing, the date of these presents, part of the said term of 31 years hereby granted the rent or sum of 80s. of lawful money of Great Britain, to be paid on the same 10th day of October, and thence forth for 26 years further part of the |