Senator WILEY. You don't mean to imply there was some politics in this, do you? Senator LODGE. I think it is the wrong way to run a railroad, frankly. Senator HICKENLOOPER. It seems to me, Mr. Tydings, you will accomplish your purpose by having a subcommittee meet, circumscribe what it understands to be the intent of this resolution, the language is loose as can be, then commit that through Foreign Relations Committee to the Senate, and say this is what we understand to be the limitations of this resolution. We submit it here. If there are objections we would like to hear them, if not, we would like to have the approval of the Senate. That gets you out of the whole business. The CHAIRMAN. Well, that would open up the whole thing we had on the floor the other day. Senator HICKENLOOPER. Well, what do you think would happen if we sent this back with another resolution? COMMITTEE LIABLE TO CHARGES OF COVERUP Senator TYDINGS. I think that would be better than what we have now, but I still say that you will find with the intensity behind this resolution, and with an election year on, I'm not throwing any aspersions on anybody, this committee is liable to be put in the position where it can be charged with trying to cover up and trying to evade its responsibility because here it is, just as plain as anybody in the world could make it. Here it is in black and white. Senator HICKENLOOPER. Not if you follow your suggestion. Senator TYDINGS. Darned if I'm going to be standing before the Senate committee and be accused of shielding the Communists. Senator LODGE. You won't find me that way either. Senator TYDINGS. I think there is only one way to do it, and that is to straighten out what the subcommittee is going to do in clear, specific, plain, understandable language so that the committee can take the resolution and religiously carry it through to its completion. There is no other way you can do it without courting dangers. SUBMIT SUBCOMMITTEE'S INTERPRETATION TO SENATE Senator GEORGE. I don't think you can go back to the Senate and ask the Senate to amend this resolution. I think we would make ourselves look ridiculous. The people in the Senate would say it is perfectly plain whether it does or not make sense. We've told you what to do. We didn't ask you whether you wanted to do this. We might concede that you had the authority to do it without this resolution, but we've directed you. Now I think the only thing you can do under the circumstances is report to this committee what you think is the scope of the inquiry to be pursued under it, bring it back to this committee, if you wish, let the chairman of the full committee go to the Senate and say, "Acting under this resolution, the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations has authorized the appointment of subcommittee," just as we have authorized it, "and the subcommittee has been appointed. The subcommittee has submitted to the full committee its interpretation of the duties and responsibilities placed upon it by this resolution.” And then proceed to set them out. Try to make them direct. And on that we might get a unanimous vote in the Senate. The CHAIRMAN. You mean, first have this committee report to the Senate. Senator GEORGE. Yes; that we interpret this resolution, that our subcommittee duly constituted has interpreted this resolution as follows. You have to, of course, limit the thing. You have to say it doesn't call on it to go back to the beginning of the Government, the first organization of the State Department down to the present time. That in the light of the circumstances, events leading to this discussion and passage of this resolution, we interpret it to mean so and so, and submit that to the Senate. That may provoke some discussion, but if we went back down there and asked them to amend this resolution I think we would be in terrible shape. I don't see how we would get anywhere. They would say, well, we directed you to do this. If you're not going to do it, say so, we'll appoint some other special committee. Senator HICKENLOOPER. There are people waiting to put more things in this resolution if they were to get the chance. Senator THOMAS of Utah. I thought Senator Tydings' first question was that he wanted an interpretation from us as to whether this part here means to go back and bring up all the dead men along with all the living. Senator TYDINGS. All right then, if that is a pretty well accepted thought, I would like to have a motion, which I will propose, acted on by this committee. MOTION TO SET FORTH SCOPE AND PROCEDURE OF THE STUDY That any subcommittee appointed under Senate Resolution 231 due to the scope of that resolution be authorized and directed to set forth the scope of procedure of study and investigation which it proposes to pursue, and that that determination be laid before the Senate, first before the Foreign Relations Committee, and subsequently by the chairman before the Senate to ascertain whether or not the procedure indicated by the subcommittee and the Foreign Relations Committee meets with the approval of the Senate, and will achieve an orderly discharge of the purposes and intentions that the Senate had in mind when the resolution was passed. Senator WILEY. I second the motion, Mr. Chairman. Senator THOMAS of Utah. I think. Mr. Chairman, it would be better to take only one step today and not be bound by the second and third steps, so that if the first step is for the subcommittee to start its work and report to us, what its procedure is going to be, the interpretation of what it is going to do. Then, if in our judgment, we feel satisfied, we don't have to go back on the floor. If we feel it ought to go back to the floor, let us decide then instead of deciding now. Senator TYDINGS. I have no objection to taking up one step at a time, I think it is a good idea, but as one probable member of the committee, I would feel very reluctant to proceed without laying this matter before the Senate and having any criticism registered and recorded and corrections made, if necessary, or have it generally understood that that is it. I am not going to get maneuvered in a position where the members of this committee can be criticized for having not done their job. Senator LODGE. All that will be understood in advance before we start. Senator HICKENLOOPER. It will be the understanding of the committee expressed here in this meeting, that your subcommittee would be expected to do that, if in their judgment, it would be necessary. Senator GEORGE. I think if the subcommittee to be appointed to come back here and say this is our interpretation, and we recommend that the full committee through the chairman make this interpretation known to the Senate, and I am sure the full committee will follow your recommendations. Senator TYDINGS. I think that is all right. Senator GEORGE. You could rely on the full committee following the subcommittee's recommendations on that. I am sure you will have to interpret this resolution and you will have to bring it to us, and I am sure you will have to take it to the Senate. Senator TYDINGS. I ask for the question, Mr. Chairman. MOTION CARRIED The CHAIRMAN. You heard the motion of the Senator from Maryland, all in favor of the motion say "aye." [Chorus of "ayes."] The CHAIRMAN. Opposed? [No response.] The CHAIRMAN. The motion will be carried. Do you have another motion, Senator Tydings? Senator TYDINGS. No. The CHAIRMAN. Is there any other matter to come before the committee at this time? [No response.] Senator TYDINGS. I think it will be a wise thing for all the members of the committee to submit anything they want along the lines of the motion to the subcommittee so that the subcommittee will have an opportunity and idea of what the desires and intentions of the other members of this committee are. A FULL AND COMPLETE INVESTIGATION The CHAIRMAN. I want a full and complete investigation of any real matters that we've got. I don't think we are getting anywhere. We would obscure the purposes of the whole investigation if we go out on a general witch hunt of every employee of the United States, which seems to be included in the language of this resolution, we would simply get nowhere. Senator WILEY. Mr. Chairman, I feel that we've got to be especially careful at the very beginning that there isn't an impression given that it is not going to be, as the language says, full and complete as accepted by the ordinary citizen. That means a reasonable, sensible pursuit of the objective. That's all it means in my judgment. It doesn't mean going all over the lot, or scattering the file. But in view of the disclosures that we have had, in view of the people who have been convicted, and in view of Senator McCarthy's charges, it has created what I think a situation that calls for honest, constructive solutions to the problem. I see no other way. APPOINTMENT OF SUBCOMMITTEE Mr. Chairman, I think you would serve a constructive purpose if, right here, you appointed this subcommittee, if you could assure us that you would follow our suggestions, it would be a healthy omen to start the whole thing with. You know whom you are going to put on from the other side, I think that thing could be well settled today and settled here on the record and disposed of, and the subcommittee could even meet today and talk and follow through the objectives and the ideas that I'm sure will be evident as they carry on the job. I cannot see any reason for postponing it. The CHAIRMAN. After consulting with members of the minority about this thing, I've undertaken to go along as far as I can, and go into this matter with a broad viewpoint, so the chairman has decided that the committee will be as follows: On the subcommittee will be Senators Tydings, Green, McMahon, Hickenlooper and Lodge. If anybody has any kicks about that, make them now, or forever hold your peace. Senator SMITH of New Jersey. I assume that Senator Tydings will be the chairman of the subcommittee. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; that is right. [Thereupon, the committee adjourned at 11:45 a.m.] UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, SUBCOMMITTEE ON SENATE RESOLUTION 231, Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, in room G-23 of the U.S. Capitol at 2 p.m., Senator Millard E. Tydings (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Present: Senators Tydings (chairman of the subcommittee), Green, McMahon, Hickenlooper, and Lodge. Also present: Senator Tom Connally, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. DRAFT COMMITTEE REPORT Senator TYDINGS. I have prepared this for your consideration: The Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, pursuant to Senate Resolution 231, herewith makes its first report. 1. The Committee met Saturday, February 25th, and appointed the following subcommittee to pursue the work encompassed in said Resolution. That Subcommittee is as follows: Senator Tydings of Maryland, Chairman; Senator Green of Rhode Island; Senator McMahon of Connecticut; Senator Hickenlooper of Iowa; Senator Lodge of Massachusetts. 2. In order that the subcommittee and the full committee may discharge its task in accordance with said Resolution, the subcommittee was instructed as follows: To make a full and complete study and investigation of all government employees in the Department of State and former employees of the Department of State now in other agencies of the government against whom charges have been heard in order to determine whether or not said employees are or have been loyal or disloyal to the United States from the date of to the present. 3. It was further resolved by the subcommittee and later by the full committee that the scope and procedure outlined above be brought to the attention of the Senate in order to ascertain if said scope and procedure are fully in line with the intendment of said Resolution. Now, according to the debate, some of the people who are under charges, I am advised, have left the State Department and gone into other agencies of the Federal Government. HAVE CHARGES BEEN MADE? Senator LODGE. I did not understand that charges were made against anybody yet. Senator TYDINGS. Did not Senator McCarthy make them on the floor? 1 See notes, p. 201. |