and these he could not help believing to be misrepresentations of what had passed in another place. He did not suppose it possible that there could be any person so base as to malign an illustrious stranger in the way the representations to which he had alluded indicated. If there were any man possessing such a mind, he might perhaps have the satisfaction of knowing that he had given pain; but he would also see an example of the exercise of the most virtuous feelings in the quarter where he had thrown his unjust reflections. He had thought it his duty to say thus much on the subject of the bill under consideration. Their lordships, he was confident, would give him credit for not wishing to give offence to the feelings of any one. He had the consolation of reflecting that he could never accuse himself of doing any thing to promote discord in quarters where agreement was most important being of opinion, that in all situations from the highest to the lowest, union was the first and most important of domestic virtues. He did not object to the motion for the third reading of the bill, but had considered himself bound to explain to their lordships the view he entertained of the measure. the marriage of members of the royal family were advanced out of these sums, than by applying to parliament for additional grants with the chance of having to experience a refusal. Such a result was in itself a considerable evil, besides the disagreeable situation in which such applications placed public men. The course taken, was, however, as he had said, totally unnecessary, for not less than a million a year, independently of the droits of the Admiralty, and other sources which he should not now name, went to the support of the dignity and splendor of the Crown. But he could not help adverting to the manner in which this business had come before their lordships. After the noble earl had brought down the message from the Crown, he had chosen to depart from the usual practice, and adjourned the motion for an address, because he had not made up his mind as to what he ought to propose. When, however, the consideration of the subject did come on, he detailed the sums which, he said, ought to be granted, and declared that nothing less could do. The measure, however, now came before their lordships in a very different shape. The noble earl might have had very sufficient reasons for chang ing his opinion, and finding that a less sum would be sufficient; but he had never yet stated those reasons. He recollected that, when there was a proposition for reducing a lord of the Admiralty, though the question turned only on 1,000l. the ministers of the Prince Regent declared that they could not carry on the government of the country if they were obliged to make that reduction; but now, though they had thought it right to recommend very large sums to members of the royal family, they could endure the rejection of their proposition with the greatest tranquillity. They had pocketed the affront, and kept their places. At the same time, whether any explanation should be given on this subject or not, he agreed with his noble friend, that it was quite improper to canvass the characters of those for whom such grants were proposed; but then his objection went to the whole of the system which had been acted upon. He could not admit that parliament were bound to grant a provision on the marriage of a member of the royal family, as a matter of course; for though the royal marriage act placed in the Crown the sole right of consent, it must be recollected that the constitution had placed in the House of Lord Holland said, he did not object to this grant on account of its amount, but on account of the manner in which it was given. He should not, however, have troubled their lordships with any observations on the motion, had he not thought it necessary to notice some part of what had fallen from his noble friend near him. He wished to remind his noble friend, that according to the old constitutional system. much anterior to that to which he had alluded, provision was always made for the members of the royal family out of the revenues of the Crown, and these revenues were subject to the control of parliament. The ancient principle was, that such a sum should be granted to the Crown as appeared sufficient to support its splendor and dignity; and the branches of the royal family, as part of that splendor and dignity, were supplied from the same sum. When he considered the sums of money which had, at different periods during the present reign, been voted by parliament to the Crown, he could not help considering them fully adequate to the purpose for which they were destined; and he was of opinion, that the splendor of the Crown would be much better consulted, if the provisions necessary on . Commons the sole right of granting money. I farther, and made the subject of a partiIt would be a strange proposition to say cular measure: unless this were done, all that, because the Crown had given its attempts at capricious distinctions were consent, parliament were bound to grant highly censurable. The noble lord had any demand of the Crown which followed adverted to the proceedings which took upon that consent; and it was very unfair place on the message. It would be recolto infer from a refusal, that a bad opinion lected that he stated when he moved the must necessarily be entertained of the in- address, what appeared in his opinion a dividual for whom the application had proper provision. Part of his recommenbeen made. It was not fair to the other dation had been assented to, and part reHouse of parliament, to insinuate that its fused. This was an occurrence consisdecisions were influenced by motives of tent with the nature of the constitution. that kind. He had risen, however, not to So long as this government was a governoppose the sum proposed to be given, but ment of King, Lords, and Commons, there the imposing of any additional burthen on must exist a liability to such decisions. the public. It was not the amount, but He must say, however, that he did not the fund from which it was taken, that he regret the decision so much on the acconsidered objectionable. It was most count of any individuals affected by it, as unjust to charge the consolidated fund on public grounds, because he did not with this provision. If their lordships think the question had been determined considered what had already been granted on the principles which ought to have deto the Crown during the present reign, cided it. But the noble lord did not obthey would find that it enjoyed at least ject so much to the sum as to the fund double, what, at the commencement of whence it was to be derived. The grant this reign, it had a right to expect [The was voted on this occasion, as usual, out earl of Liverpool seemed to intimate his of the consolidated fund. The marriage dissent.] He had come down unprepared act, it was true, contained nothing relative with calculations, and should not then at- to provisions for the branches of the royal tempt to enter into minute details; but he family; but, in other reigns grants for would prove what he then asserted, when-that purpose had been made by parliaever the noble earl might please to enter at large into the question. He would demonstrate that the Crown now received, for the support of its dignity and splendor only, totally independent of what went to any civil or military services, at least double of the revenue it had been in the contemplation of parliament to grant. now ment. If these provisions were thrown on the consolidated fund, it was because the revenue of the Crown, since the accession of his present majesty, had been placed on a different footing. He did not dispute with the noble lord, that the hereditary revenues of the Crown were subject to be voted by parliament; but it ought to be recollected, that it was then The Earl of Liverpool admitted that the the practice of parliament to grant a migranting or not granting of a provision, nimum of revenue. The revenues granted on the marriage of a member of the royal to king William, queen Anne, and other family, was a matter within the jurisdic- sovereigns, were capable of great increase. tion of parliament. The noble earl who And if his present majesty had enjoyed spoke first had not denied that proposi- the same sort of improvable revenue which tion, but he had fairly contended, that was granted to his ancestors, instead of when what was granted to one was with- receiving one million as the noble lord had held from another, a reflexion was con- said, the Crown would now be in the reveyed. He certainly did not mean to say ceipt of two millions of revenue. The that the House of Commons had not the arrangement which had been made at the right of acting as they had done; but, at commencement of the present reign, inthe same time, he perfectly concurred stead of leaving to the Crown an improv with the noble earl in the general princi- able revenue, fixed the civil list at a deples he had laid down. Such distinctions termined sum; thus establishing, not a made by parliament must lead to decisions minimum, but a maximum of revenue. more or less capricious and consequently But how could it be expected that the unjust. He therefore concurred in the sum then voted could be sufficient, since opinion, that if there was any real objec-it was given at a time when his majesty tion to the conduct of the illustrious indi- had no family? The numerous offspring vidual alluded to, it ought to be carried which his majesty had had, as well as other circumstances, required an alteration. He was ready to enter into a detailed view of the subject, whenever the noble baron might think proper to bring it forward; and he was convinced that, on a fair investigation, it would be found that the arrangement made at the commencement of the present reign had placed his majesty in a less favourable situation with respect to revenue than any sovereign since the revolution. The Bill was then read a third time, and passed. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, May 7. FORGERY OF BANK NOTES-PETITION FROM LIVERPOOL.] Mr. Canning presented a Petition from the merchants and other inhabitants of Liverpool, complaining of the great distress which a number of persons in that town and its neighbourhood suffered from the number of forged notes in circulation, and praying the House to take such steps as might render forgery more difficult. The right hon. gentleman observed, that not only Liverpool, but the whole county of Lancaster, was interested in having some effectual check put to the practice of forgery, as it was well known that the circus lation of money there consisted, for the most part, of Bank of England one and two pound notes. The petition was brought up; and, on the motion that it do lie on the table, General Gascoyne stated, that the inconvenience resulting to the poorer classes in general, in Liverpool and the whole county of Lancaster, from the great num ber of forged notes in circulation was so great, that a meeting was held some time back for the purpose of erecting provincial banks, where the Bank of England notes might be received, and the detection of forged notes be rendered less difficult. At that meeting a hope was expressed that the Bank themselves would take some steps to render the forgery of their notes more difficult, but in this he was sorry to find his constituents disappointed. No such steps had been taken, and the consequence was, that the evil continued rather to increase than diminish. Indeed, so great was the prevalence of forgeries, that though the Bank had called in some of their notes of a certain date, and offered to pay them in gold, many poor persons who held small sums in them, were afraid to have them presented lest it sliould turn out that they were forgeries, and the whole be detained. He thought this was a case in which the House was called upon to interfere, if the Bank did not of their own accord devise some means to check the evil. Mr. J. Smith observed, that not having been in the House when this question was before it on a former evening, he wished to correct a mistake which had been made, with respect to prosecutions by the Bank solicitor. It should be known, that all the prosecutions which were carried on by the Bank were under the direction of a select committee of the Directors, and that the solicitor had only to obey the instructions which were given to him. Mr. Manning said, the Bank would be glad to find that provincial banks were established as the hon. gentleman had mentioned, for they had no desire that their small notes should circulate in counties so remote from London. As to the number of notes in circulation in Lancashire, he could not see how it was to be prevented by the Bank, since they had on several occasions given notice in the gazettes through the Speaker of the House of Commons, that they were ready to pay their one and two pound notes of certain dates in gold. The Bank felt disposed to do every thing in their power to prevent the increase of forgeries. Mr. Canning did not impute any disinclination to the Bank to guard the public as far as they could, from the evil now so generally felt and confessed. But he did' think that something should be done for that remote and extensive county, which limited its currency to the Bank of England notes exclusively. In answer to the alleged neglect of the holders of the notes of 1815 and 1816, not forwarding them, he believed that the hazard of these notes being rejected as forgeries, was balanced against the desire of receiving gold or fresh paper. The Petition was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. TRANSUBSTANTIATION.] General Thornton rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, to move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal those parts of the acts of the 25th and 30th of Charles 2nd requiring a declaration against Transubstantiation, and asserting the worship of the church of Rome to be idolatrous. already assigned, but it could not be imagined that the same reasons existed at present. The established church was not in danger, and he conceived that the declaration ought to be got rid of as altogether unnecessary. The real test was, the oath of supremacy, and he conceived that to be sufficient for every purpose connected with security of the church or state. If a person took the oath of supremacy, he thought it quite enough, for their belief in Transubstantiation did not by any means imply a belief in the supremacy of the pope. He would mention, for instance, the Christians of the Greek church, all of whom believed in Transubstantiation, but none of them in the supremacy of the pope. It was too much to exclude any man from a seat in that House who did not believe the latter, merely because he conscientiously adhered to the former doctrine-The hon, general then contended, that the doing away of this illiberal and unnecessary declaration, would contribute very much to the cordial union, of Catholics and Protestants, which had al He began by apologising to the House for the frequent delays which had occurred in bringing forward this motion. He had put it off in consequence of the absence of so many Irish members, and he was also afraid, that if the question of Catholic emancipation should be brought forward in the present session, his motion might be supposed to interfere with it, which was a circumstance be by no means desired. He was sorry to find that his motion was mistaken by some persons as a question concerning Catholic emancipation. It had indeed by some been understood as the Catholic question. It was no such thing, for he should never think of taking upon himself, even if he had the abilities so to do, that important measure, from the so much more able hands in which it was already placed. His motion was rather a Protestant than a Catholic question, for it was a greater stain upon Protestants to be revilers in this respect, than it was upon Catholics to be reviled. It was a sort of argument in favour of his motion, that though its object was so long known, there had been no petitions pre-ready begun so much to manifest itself in sented against it, from which it was natural to infer, that Protestants were in favour of it. The first part of the declaration which he wished to see abolished, was that which related to Transubstantiation, though it was not so objectionable as the other, which condemned the religious worship of the church of Rome as idolatrous. He saw no right that any legislature had to make any man swear to the belief or disbelief of any doctrine, except it was one by the belief in which the safety of the state might be affected. The hon. general then read that part of the declaration which referred to this tenet of the Roman Catholic faith, and also the part which condemns the sacrifice of the mass as idolatrous. The law ordaining these declarations was, he observed, passed when there were many rumours and alarms of the plots of the Catholics, though he believed most of them were unfounded. The established church was, however, then considered to be in danger, and the more so as Charles 2nd was a Catholic in his heart, and as his brother, the then duke of York, openly professed the Roman Catholic religion. But even then an opposition was made to the bill in the House of Peers, by the bishop of Ely, who declared the Roman Catholic religion not to be idolatrous, and he was answered by bishop Barlow. The bill passed for the reasons Ireland. A great deal of what already ex- and asserting the worship of the Church | tence tended to keep alive a feeling towards of Rome to be idolatrous." Mr. W. Smith, after a short pause, rose to second the motion. The previous question was then put and carried without a division. the Roman Catholics, which they by no means deserved. With the belief in the doctrine of Transubstantiation, however Lord Castlereagh begged to be under- absurd, he thought the House had no right stood as imputing to the hon. and gallant to interfere; and there were many men general the best intentions in submitting who would refuse to make the declaration the proposition then before the House. who, nevertheless, were as well qualified He believed, however, that it was imper- to take a seat in the House as any member fect in point of order, as the motion should who had at present the honour of sitting have been for a committee to consider of in it. The real test was the oath of suthe laws whose repeal was proposed. But premacy, and therefore he conceived the his objection to it was not on the ground other to be unnecessary, and would wish of form: it arose from the conviction that to see it expunged from the Statute book: no practical conclusion could be inferred its continuance there could be of no use from its adoption. The laws moved to be whatever. repealed were associated with other enactments, which many persons in the country deemed of the highest importance. So strongly was this felt by the advocates of the Catholics, that in 1812, when a bill for their relief was introduced, the measure of indulgence was wisely separated from any general repeal of the test laws, and even a special law of that nature was proposed for the Catholics. Το urge, therefore, any such repeal, solely on abstract grounds, was to commit the House on a most embarrassing question, without the chance of any practical object being the result. It would be impossible to keep such a discussion distinct from the consideration of the Catholic question: and the hon. and gallant general must feel, that if entered into, it would have the effect of forcing the consideration, in opposition to the intentions of those most interested. Without any feeling of disrespect to the hon. and gallant mover, he felt it his duty to move the previous question. CROWN LANDS.] Mr. Huskisson moved for leave to bring in a bill for the improvement of parts of Hainault forest, in Essex, with a view to encourage the growth of naval timber. He adverted to some plans of improvement in the forests that had been entertained with a similar view. Epping forest it had been found there were so many villas connected with forest scenery, &c. that any plan must be accompanied with considerable limitations. In Mr. Brougham said, he had no objection to extending to the Crown the fullest power, in order to make the property of the Crown lands most available to the public interest. What he had to express his surprise at was, the diversity exemplified in the manner in which these sales were negociated. In looking into the volu minous reports on the subject, he saw items which, to understand, required some Mr. W. Smith agreed in most of the explanation; and others which, in his observations made by the noble lord upon judgment, no explanation could clear up. the question, but he did not wish, as it The diversity with which the honours and had been brought forward, that it should forestal privileges were disposed of, repass without observation. He was satis- quired at least some explanation. In fied that if it were carried it would not some instances, as appeared by the relead directly to any practical good, as af- ports, large sums were paid by individuals, fecting the present restraints upon the while in others they were bestowed withRoman Catholics; at the same time he out any remuneration. In the purchases concurred most heartily in the principle a great diversity was also observable: for on which it went. There was an old say-instance, a sale was effected in favour of ing, that "words will not alter the nature of things;" but it could not be denied that words often went to give a very different colouring to things, and often to mislead public opinion with respect to them. It was the case with the declarations to which the hon. mover alluded; they did not, he was certain, keep any one man out of parliament, but at the same time their exis a noble lord, a cabinet minister, for ten years purchase, whilst in other instances, the transfers were made at twenty-five or thirty years. Nine thousand pounds and a few hundreds, were all that the noble lord paid for 500l. per annum. Had it been an open sale, he had good reasons for believing that a very large sum would have been received for such a purchase. |