HOUSE OF LORDS. Wednesday, May 6. PARDONS UNDER THE GREAT SEAL.] The Marquis of Lansdowne rose to move the second reading of the Pardons under the Great Seal bill. Having some time ago taken an opportunity of stating the grounds on which he supported this measure, he need not trouble their lordships with many observations on the motion for the second reading. It was only necessary for him to say, that the bill had for its object to believe persons to whom the mercy of the Crown had been extended, from the hardship of paying the fees on suing out a pardon under the Great Seal, which most of them were unable to do. This was the whole extent of the measure as it had come from the other House; but in considering the subject as a whole, it was impossible for him not to feel that the relief ought to be carried farther than the present bill proposed to extend it. At the same time he was very sensible of the difficulty of pressing the relief which he was of opinion ought to be granted to its full extent, at a time when the revenue was deficient. No source of revenue operated to produce greater mischief to the poorer classes than the stamps on law proceedings. The expense they occasioned was an obstacle to the attainment of justice. Hence the numerous applications to the legislature for the establishment of inferior jurisdiction, but of an anomalous and unconstitutional nature. The institution of such courts would never be desired by the people were it not for the difficulties they experienced in obtaining justice before higher tribunals. This was a state of things, with respect to the administration of justice, in which the country ought not to exist. As to the present measure, it went merely to relieve unfortunate persons from paying the fees on pardons, which amounted on each to about 60., and therefore it could operate in a very slight degree towards the reduction of the revenue. The Bill was read a second time. vember 1815, between this government and the government of any foreign state on the subject of aliens; and copies of any correspondence which may have passed between his majesty's government and the government of the king of the Netherlands, since the 20th of November 1815, relating to passports granted or refused to any individuals. Some time ago, when he asked the prince regent's minister whether there existed any stipulations between this country and foreign powers on the subject of aliens, he answered in the negative; and when he afterwards asked whether any negotiations or correspondence on that subject had taken place, the noble earl stated, that the renewal of the Alien bill would be proposed to parliament, not with reference to any foreign policy, but on the ground of British interests only. This certainly was no answer to the question whether a negotiation or correspondence on the subject had not existed; and it was with a view to be satisfied on that point that he intended to move for the papers he had described. If he had not considered it probable that the motion would be resisted, he should not have deemed a previous notice necessary. He would take another opportunity of fixing the precise day. Their lordships ought to know what the real situation of the country with regard to this question was, be fore any bill should come from the other House; for he was persuaded that many of the supporters of the former bill had voted for it under the idea that some secret pledge or stipulation had been entered into on the subject with foreign governments. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Wednesday, May 6. EXCISE CONVICTIONS IN IRELAND.] Mr. Cooper said, that of all the evils arising from the excise laws, with respect to private distillation in Ireland, there were, perhaps, none more deserving of notice than the collusion which existed so frequently between the officers of excise and the persons who were in the habit of illiALIENS.] Lord Holland said, that in cit distillation. He knew that country consequence of what had recently passed gentlemen were thought to be friendly to in the other House of parliament. He illicit distillation; but there was no such intended to take an early opportunity of feeling, except it might be among the very moving for some papers relative to aliens. lowest description; all were equally imThe papers he wished to obtain were co-pressed with the necessity of putting down pies of any correspondence which may the practice; it was only the cruel means have taken place, since the 20th of No- that were adopted to put it down that he objected to. It was true, they often suffered from collusion between the excise officers and private distillers. The hon. gentleman said, that he himself had suffered in this way once. A person who had been in the practice of illicit distillation, and hiring out a still for the purpose when he found that trade fail, and that his still was nearly worn out, thought he could do no better than hide the still in one of his (Mr. C.'s) plantations, and inform the excise officer; thereby receiving a reward himself, and the excise officer a fine. He would now advert to the particular case which occasioned his troubling the House, and to which he would request their attention. By an act of the 55th of the king, the having unlicensed malt in possession was constituted a misdemeanor The punishment to be awarded upon conviction, is a fine of not more than 100l. nor less than 10l. to be paid to the prosecutor; or, instead of fine, a punishment of six months imprisonment. At the late assizes at Sligo, among the indictments which came before the grand jury were a vast number for misdemeanors for having unlicensed malt, in which the excise officers were the prosecutors and witnesses. When the prisoners were put upon their trial, he would beg the House to attend to the way the prosecutions were conducted. The prosecutors, viz. the excise officers, advised the prisoners to plead guilty, and that they would be immediately discharged. They did so, were, of course, convicted, and fined 10. each, for which the prosecutors, viz. the excise officers, immediately gave receipts, without payment, and the prisoners immediately left the court, hurrying, to begin their illicit practices again. It might be asked, why the excise officers had so acted? The reason was, they were perfectly certain of never receiving the fine from the prisoners whom they knew to be unable to pay; it was, therefore, better for the trade to let them go, particularly as the officers were entitled to a reward from the commissioners of excise, of 10. upon each conviction. Now, would the House please to consider the mischievous effects of this proceeding. In the first place, the great encouragement to illicit distillation; and, in the second place, the great expense attending these sham convictions. First, the additional allowances to the military, who, by the way, in one of the instances he had alluded to, had committed a most wanton murder upon a poor labourer, who was going to his work, and who had nothing whatever to do with the business; next to the expense of the military attending on these occasions, were the additional allowances to the excise officers, the expense of the prosecutions and convictions, by the payments to the law officers, and the rewards to the prosecutors, viz. the excise officers, from the commissioners of excise. For these reasons, he moved, "That an Account be laid before the House, stating what Rewards have been promised by or in behalf of the Commissioners of Excise in Ireland to any of their Officers, for the detection or conviction of Persons having unlicensed Malt in their possession with the number of prosecutions and Convictions for such offence within the last two years, and the Assizes at which such Prosecutions severally took place; the expenses attending the seizing such unlicensed Malt; the Law expenses attending such Prosecutions; the amount of rewards claimed or paid, and the fund from which they were so paid, and the names of the Persons to whom they were paid." The motion was agreed to. MAIL COACH CONTRACTS IN IRE LAND.] Mr. Cooper said, he would shortly state why he felt it right to call for some returns relative to Mail Coach Contracts in Ireland. He took it for granted, that it would not be denied, that the great end to be obtained by mailcoaches was, the conveyance of the mails of letters with expedition and safety; but by the kind of carriage contracted for, in general, by the post-office, neither of these objects were attained. The carriages, in most cases, were heavy coaches, carrying six inside and four outside passengers, which, with the coachman and guard, made twelve persons; now, it was easy to see, that this coach, with the quantity of luggage and parcels which they must necessarily require, could not travel at mailcoach rate. The consequence was, that those carriages, though the mail-coach roads were excellent, travelled at only six English miles an hour, when the very slowest of the mail-coaches here travelled at seven, and most of them at eight miles in the hour. The bad consequences of these heavy coaches to the trade and commerce of the country were very great; for, by an early obtaining of their correspondence, the merchants could better regulate their markets and their trade. It was evident, as the mails left town always at the same hour, that by increased expe- | dition they got farther on their journey before they met the return mail; and, therefore, that, by increased expedition, many of the intermediate post towns could receive answers to letters the same day that their letters were delivered. But one circumstance, which he thought most culpable, was, the entering into contracts in reversion, sometimes for fourteen, sometimes for twenty-one years, thereby saddling the country with these heavy coaches for that length of time. This practice, he was of opinion, should be put an end to. It was therefore he begged leave to move for abstracts of contracts with proprietors of mail-coaches, stating the number of passengers to be conveyed, rate of travelling, &c. &c. This motion was agreed to. IRISH GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS BILL.] Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald rose, to call the attention of the House to the motion of which he had given notice, on the subject of Grand Juries in Ireland. It would be recollected, that, in the course of last session, the House, after a deliberate examination into the laws which governed the proceedings of Irish Grand Juries, directed that a certain number of county surveyors should be appointed, to decide on the practicability, and examine into the expense, of such public works as should be presented to these juries. In consequence of the impossibility of procuring competent persons to fill the offices of these county surveyors, that part of the act of last session had been suspended early in the present. He lamented that it was found necessary to suspend this part of the act; and he begged at the same time to state, that in the bill which he now intended to introduce, the clause for the appointment of county surveyors would be altogether omitted; neither was it his intention to embody in the bill that provision most objected to in Ireland, of restricting the reception of presentments to the assizes at one part of the year; he meant to leave the arrangement of that business precisely as it heretofore stood. The opinion of every fair man on the state of grand jury business in Ireland, was, that some alteration in it was necessary, to prevent grand juries from being surprised into decisions on presentments, without having an adequate opportunity of considering either their necessity or merits. To remedy this evil, he meant to pro pose, that all presentments for new works should be submitted at a full attendance of magistrates (an attendance that ought to be rendered imperative) at the quarter sessions to be held previous to the assizes, at which these presentments were to be laid before the grand jury. It was not intended that either the approval or disapproval of these presentments by the magistrates at the quarter sessions should trench upon the prerogative of the grand jury, or prevent their proceeding, as usual, to consider the grants thus submitted to them-the previous submittal of the intended grants to the magistrates was by no means intended to control or supersede the legal province of the grand jury-on the contrary, it was rather meant to facilitate and enlarge the performance of their duty, by enabling them to have better information on the presentments submitted to them, than it was probable they previously had, and thereby enabling them, perhaps, to order public works, from which they might have previously refrained from conscientious scruples, as to their want of adequate information to justify this appropriation of the public money. It was most desirable, in all cases of these presentments, that the utmost publicity should be given on the nature of the several applications for local grants. In all cases it was known, that an affidavit of the necessity of the application, and of its probable expense, was made; but in nine hundred and ninety-nine cases out of a thousand this affidavit was made in the dark, as to the expense, and the effect was, that little attention was paid to the sanctity of the oath, and a moral laxity of course prevailed as to the solemnity of the obligation. In lieu of this part of the former system, he meant to propose, that no person should be called on to swear positively as to the definite amount of expense, but that it should be competent for the magistrates to call for such evidence as the nature of the case admitted, in support of the different presentments. He would not, at this moment, trouble the House with any details of the measure, which might be better explained in a future stage; he would merely state, that, in addition to this preliminary regulation, on the probable expense and necessity of the proposed works, it was his wish to make more efficient arrangements for the accounting branch of the expenditure which may be ordered. At present there was no accounting for this ex be the invaluable reflection, that he had tried to check a system of taking oaths, which was most offensive to the best interests of religion and morality, and most dangerous to the community at large. He then concluded by moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to provide for the more deliberate investigation of Presentments to be made by Grand Juries for Roads and Public Works in Ireland, and for accounting for Money raised by such Presentments." penditure in the manner that there ought. portant did this reformation in the grand He meant to introduce a provision which jury system in Ireland appear to him, that called for all the details of the expenditure he was determined to persevere in calling voted, and rendered it necessary for the the attention of the House to the subject, party to produce proper evidence, on nor should any consideration deter him oath, as to all the items for which he paid from following up the matter. He should, the public money; and also that such in- at least, have the consolation of feeling quiry should be openly carried on coram that he had performed his duty; and his judice, and the accounts liable to be tra- labours would be abundantly repaid, if he versed until the next assizes. It was far found in the result, that he had saved a from being his intention to introduce any single peasant from the expense of an asirrelevant matter on this subject, or to sessment which he ought not to have provoke any hostile feeling, where none, borne, or protected the rights of the upon a proper understanding of the sub-humblest individual from the slightest inject, ought to exist. He disclaimed cast-vasion or oppression. Added to this would ing the slightest reflection on the grand juries it was the system that necessitated the remedy, and not any impropriety on the part of the gentlemen who guided its operation as the law stood. To lay a parliamentary ground for the necessity of some control in the accounting part of the presentment money, he had only to state this strong and indisputable fact, that in no instance, save one (and that was looked upon as an act of romantic virtue), had one farthing been returned of the sums voted for public works-though it was notorious that the sums sworn to as necessary at the outset, embraced a major view of the expense, and always left room for eventual contingencies. When these sums amounted to half a million annually, the House might form some idea of the importance of a proper check on an expenditure so conducted. This check could be only properly had by an examination in open court and before a jury, with a liability to have the accounts traversed. To his motion he could anticipate no objection. It did not, as he had before said, trench on the power of grand juries, but, on the contrary, it gave them a better facility of transacting their business than they heretofore possessed. It was far from his wish to take an iota from their proper authority, as he was aware of the value which Ireland must derive from the local residence of a gentry very properly exercising the right to order the necessary expenditure of their own counties. He was sure that this authority could not be vested in fitter hands, and that the law, as he proposed to have it amended, would enable the grand juries to do their business as they would wish it to be done, without being liable either to imposition, or a want of proper information on the subject of any presentment that might be submitted to them. So im Sir George Hill concurred in the motion of the right hon. member, and expressed his hope, that although he had but slightly hinted at the necessity of requiring sufficient security from the treasurers of the counties in Ireland, that this important matter would not be forgotten. Mr. Denis Browne did not rise to oppose the motion. He fully concurred in the opinion, that if any part of the system of grand juries were found injurious in its operation, the legislature ought immediately to apply a remedy to the evil. He could not, however, help observing, with reference to the proposed bill, that it did not contain a single principle which was not already provided for by the existing law. He saw no additional security provided on the subject of the oath it was already publicly taken, and the alteration was only that the party on whom it seemed no reliance was to be placed, should undergo an examination on the strength of that obligation, to which it appeared he was indifferent. The right hon. gentleman then stated that no modern alteration had taken place in the mode of levy for these assessments. In the county with which he was more immediately connected, no alteration in the assessment had taken place since the time of lord Strafford. The grand juries were not chargeable with any defect in this branch of the system. It should, besides, be kept in recollection, that of the large amount said to be levied by these bodies, a very considerable portion went for quite different purposes than the building bridges or roads-it went to pay the local establishments of the police, and constables, to support the gaols and pay the expense of carrying sentences against prisoners into execution, to support certain charities; in fact, there were a variety of expenses of this kind, and to a very large amount, which these assessments included Sir Henry Parnell approved of the general features of the bill, though he certainly would prefer it with any provision for making another effort to carry into execution the system of county surveyors. Out of a list of eighteen surveyors, three had only been found competent before the commissioners as candidates for these offices, and nothing would be more unfair than to suppose that, because no return of approbation was made, no competent persons were to be found to execute so important a duty. The real fact was, that a most extensive weight was imposed on the surveyors, a part of which might be spared if a modified measure were considered. By the former provision they were not only called on to estimate the expense, and superintend the execution, but also to examine into all the details during the work. They might, under a modified scale, be relieved from a part of this duty, and yet left with enough to perform for all public purposes. Another alteration might be made in the mode of managing the public expenditure; this should be done as much as possible by contract for the works, and not by a daily superintendence of the details. Mr. Peel said, that he had been last year friendly to the appointment of county surveyors, but on mature consideration he had seen reason to change his opinion. On this subject he might be considered a disinterested witness; for government would have had the appointment of a surveyor for each county. The hon. baronet had said that the commissioners decided on supposition that persons qualified for the office were not to be found. But there had been a fair trial, and it was not till after such trial that the commissioners reported that they could not find any person sufficiently qualified for the office. On other grounds he was averse to the appointment of county surveyors: it would be difficult to prevent the appointment from degenerating into abuse. No dependence was to be placed on the certificates of the persons who applied to be county surveyors. Every certificate produced to the commissioners bore on the face of it the most respectable qualifications; but the certificate was not borne out by subsequent examinations. No less than ninety-five persons had applied. Leave was given to bring in the bill. PURCHASE OF GAME BILL.] Mr. George Bankes having moved the second reading of the Purchase of Game bill, Mr. Curwen said, he did not think that the discussion of a bill of such importance should be brought on in so thin a House. He therefore recommended the hon. gentleman to postpone the second reading till there should be a fuller attendance. Mr. G. Bankes objected to the postponing of the second reading any longer. He had put off the discussion too often already at the recommendation of honourable members. It was extremely necessary that the second reading should take place before the holydays, if it was to take place at all. If there was no desire now to discuss the measure, the bill might be read a second time that night, and discussed in another stage, either on the question that the Speaker leave the chair, or the motion for the third reading. The hon. gentleman then said he would enter into a short statement of the object of the bill, and reply briefly to the objections brought against it. He had reconsidered the measure now proposed, and saw no reason to alter the opinion he had formerly stated. He had brought in the bill on the principle, that every branch of the law should be rendered effective, so long as the law itself was not repealed. So long as we had statutes against the sale of game we ought to give them effect by provisions calculated to ensure their exe cution, and proceed as far as we could in preventing the punishment for offences, by taking away the temptation to commit them. This bill placed the purchaser of game on the same footing with the seller, and levelled all distinctions of classes, by subjecting them to the same penalty. He knew that there were gentlemen of a different opinion from that which he was now supporting, and who thought that game ought to be allowed to be sold in the most unrestricted manner. A report had been made to the House on the game laws, in which there was a recommenda |