HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Tuesday, May 5.

STEAM BOATS BILL.] Mr. Harvey moved the order of the day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Steam Boats Bill.

Mr. Finlay objected to the Speaker's leaving the chair, and condemned the spirit which had lately appeared, and of which this was a part, for legislating on matters that it were better to leave to the guidance of the parties concerned. The object of this bill was to throw the management of steam boats into the hands of certain inspectors, and by this means, as he thought most unwisely, to throw off the responsibility of carefully attending to the steam-engine from the parties really interested in seeing them work with safety and effect; and all this because some accidents had occurred in high pressure engines. No such accidents were ever known, or likely to happen in those of low pressure, which were in general use. He thought there was no necessity for legislating on this subject, and that it was much better to leave the regulations in the hands of the proprietors, who were of course most interested in seeing every thing go on right. Entertaining this opinion, he would propose as an amendment to this motion, "That the bill be committed on that day three months."

GUSON.] Sir F. Burdett stated, that it was his intention that evening to move that Thomas Ferguson, who had lately been committed to Newgate for a breach of the privileges of that House, should be discharged; but as the noble secretary of state was implicated in the grounds on which he should found his motion, he was unwilling to bring the subject forward in the noble lord's absence; which he should nevertheless be compelled to do, unless any of the noble lord's friends could say that they expected him in the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer professed himself unable positively to answer for his noble friend's appearance, although he believed it was his intention to come down to the House.

In a few minutes afterwards lord Castlereagh entered the House, when

Sir. F. Burdett again rose. He said, he had deferred addressing the chair until the noble lord's appearance in the House, as the noble lord was in some degree implicated in the grounds of the motion which he was about to make-namely, to discharge Thomas Ferguson, who had been committed to Newgate by order of the House, for having attempted to influence the vote of some person at the ensuing election. It was impossible for him not to feel the gross injustice of this proceeding, when he called to mind the conduct pursued by the House of Commons, under similar circumstances, in that more flagrant case in which the noble lord opposite had some years ago been implicated. It was indispensable to justice, that criminals, whether of high or low rank, should be treated with the utmost impartiality. If that had been so in the present instance-if justice had been dealt with an equal hand to the noble lord and to this Mr. Ferguson, he should have had nothing to say on the subject, for he understood that the latter had certainly committed that which the House was accustomed to call a grievous offence against its privileges. When he considered that the noble opposite had, on the occasion which he alluded to, been charged with having done all in his power to obtain for an individual a seat in that House, by a mode of corruption the most objectionable; when he considered that for that purpose the noble lord offered to barter the patronage which he possessed; when he considered that it was at that time the peculiar duty of the noble lord, as presiFOR THE DISCHARGE OF THOMAS FER-dent of the board of control, to prevent

Mr. Harvey said, that this bill was brought in by the recommendation of a committee appointed to consider the subject, and before whom satisfactory evidence was given of the necessity of adopting some legislative enactment, by which the recurrence of those fatal accidents that had taken place would be avoided. The object of the bill would be to have the boilers and safety valves so constructed and placed, as to prevent the occurrence of accident by any neglect of the men appointed to look after them; and also to appoint inspectors, who should see that the provisions of the law were complied with, and give a certificate to that effect, before any boat should be allowed to sail.

Mr. Finlay said, he would not press his amendment at that moment; but would reserve his opposition until a future stage of the bill.

The bill was then committed.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

MOTION

تو

any corrupt use of India patronage, when scandalous abuse of patronage. In the he considered that the person in whose case of Ferguson too, as in the case of favour the noble lord made the attempt the noble lord, the proceeding had but was himself a member of the board of just commenced. It was in embryo-60 control; when he considered, that in much in embryo, that there was every order to effect the noble lord's object, it probability it would never have been folbecame necessary to induce another vio- lowed up by any actual step. So that lation of duty, on the part of one of the all which applied in extenuation of the directors of the East India company, who, case of the noble lord, was applicable in if he did not take an oath, at least made a a tenfold degree to the case of Ferguson, solemn asseveration that he would not who had, nevertheless, been severely puconvert his patronage into the means of nished, by being taken away from his facilitating purposes, such as that in ques- country and family, and shut up in Newtion; when he considered that the author gate, for an offence ten times less than of all these circumstances, culpable as he that after the commission of which the would be in any condition, was infinitely noble lord got off without censure-an more so when found in the station of a offence, too, still more incomplete than minister, the whole formed a mass of ag- that of the noble lord, as the transaction gravation, giving to the act a character of had barely commenced. He should be the most pernicious tendency. In a moral glad to know the justice, the reason, or point of view he was willing to admit that the common sense, of the distinction at the time of the occurrence which he which induced the House to send one inhad described, he did not think that it dividual to gaol for a trifling offence, and ought to be very heavily visited with pu- to let another escape without animadvernishment; for the noble lord had simply sion for a transaction infinitely more criacted under the system which unfor- minal. But there was a still stronger case tunately had long prevailed on the sub- to which he was desirous of recalling the ject, and the existence of which was ge- attention of the House. Some time after nerally acknowledged; but looking at it the occurrence which he had just desin a constitutional point of view, he re-cribed, the noble lord, and a late right peated, that it appeared to him to be one hon. gentleman, then his colleague (Mr. of the most aggravated cases of guilt that Perceval), were charged with particihis imagination could form. It pleased pating in a transaction of still deeper guilt the House of Commons, however, not-namely, with conniving at the procurwithstanding the truth of the alleged facts ing of money for a seat in that House, was admitted by the noble lord, to come which money was paid to the agent of the to a resolution, that as the proceeding had Treasury, Mr. Henry Wellesley, not to only commenced, and was not brought to a be put into his pocket, but to be added conclusion, that although (still keeping up to a corruption fund devoted to the purthe old pretence) they ought to be ex- pose of influencing future elections for tremely jealous of their character for purity the purposes of government. This was and independence, they did not think they unquestionably a most gross proceeding; were called upon to adopt any definite pro- and as far as iniquity could be said to ceeding with reference to the noble lord. attach to the practice of bartering seats But let that case of the noble lord's be com- in that House, it was most iniquitous. pared with the case of Ferguson. The But that was not all. The individual who latter had attempted to do what? That had paid his money to the agent of the which did not comprehend a tenth, nay, Treasury, having so obtained a seat, when not a hundredth part of the offence of the he came into the House unfortunately felt noble lord. The noble lord had been a disposed to attend to the dictates of his dealer in that kind of traffic by whole- conscience. On some important occasion, sale; he was for purchasing a seat. Mr. when his conscience would not allow him Ferguson's object was only to influence to vote with ministers, it was intimated an individual in the vote which he should to him that he must either resign his seat, give at an election. In the first place this or vote against his conscience. To miniswas a minimum of guilt. To influence a ters it was indifferent which part of the vote could not be placed in the same scale alternative the individual in question of offences as to procure, by undue adopted; to the hon. member it was not means, a seat in that House. Besides, so, and he gave up his seat. Here, then, in the case of Ferguson there was no there was every possible circumstance of (VOL. XXXVIII.) (2 L)

aggravation of which the crime was sus-tration of it contained in the petition preceptible. It was the act of a minister of sented four or five and twenty years ago, the Crown. It would have been reprehen- from the Friends of the People, complainsible in any individual: but it was a hun- ing of the abuses that took place in the dred times more so in a minister of the composition of the House, alleging that Crown. Here was a corrupt purchase a certain, and that not a small number and sale for money of a seat in the House of the members were nominated by peers of Commons, with the agreement that the of the realm, and offering to substantiate conscience and understanding of the indi- that allegation at the bar-it was too unvidual holding it were not to be exercised. just, and too disgusting, on the part of It appeared that there were two kinds of the House, when an unfortunate individual conscience-that there was not only a like Ferguson had merely done that which parliamentary language, but a parliamen- it was allowed had been long a common tary conscience that an individual was to practice, to seize him on pretence of mainbe expected to decide by his private con- taining that purity which, in fact, did not science in one case, and by his parliamen- exist, but of which they affected to be jeatary conscience in another. The gentle- lous, and to make him undergo a severe man who had purchased the seat in ques- punishment, when at the same time over tion, not being able to reconcile his par- ministers, who were detected in the comliamentary conscience with his private mission of an offence of infinitely greater conscience, resigned the seat which he enormity, they unhesitatingly threw the had purchased. Here was a member, shield of impunity. This robe of purity purchasing in the most iniquitous way the House could one day wear, and the from the Treasury-from ministers a seat next throw off, just as it suited their conin parliament; and having so purchased venience; though when stripped of it noit, he nevertheless felt himself compelled thing was to be seen underneath but by his sense of honour to give it up. "filthy dowlas." But was it possible that This was no unfinished transaction. It gentlemen thought the country so blind was as complete as an epic poem. It had and so stupid-did they think that all a beginning, a middle, and an end. One sense of justice was so completely extinwould have thought that the House was guished in it-that it could look at this placed by it in such a situation, that it transaction without feeling indignation as could adopt only one course of proceed- warm as that with which he (sir F. Buring. But no notwithstanding what had dett) viewed it? He remembered one of before occurred-notwithstanding the re- Esop's Fables, in which it was related, solution of the House, that they were not that at a certain time the morality among bound to notice the former proceeding the beasts of the forest was so great, that, (not a tenth part so criminal as the latter), attributing it to the vengeance of the on the ground merely of its having been Gods, they assembled in much consternaincomplete what did they do? Why, it tion to discover, if possible, what crime they was declared from all parts of the House, had committed to draw down upon that the practice in question was noto- heavy a calamity. The lion of course was rious. By one it was said to be as noto- the first to address the meeting, and for his rious as the sun at noon day; by another, part disclaimed any sanguinary act by which to be as common as the streets of the me- he could have incurred the divine anger. tropolis; and by the majority, to be so He was followed by the wolf, the leopard, universal, that it would be unjust to visit and the other beasts of prey, who all dethe noble lord and the right hon. gentle-clared themselves equally innocent. At man with punishment for having adopted it. On that occasion he (sir F. Burdett) certainly felt no great anxiety that those persons should experience any heavy vengeance well knowing how many had been guilty of similar proceedings, and well knowing in what way the House of Commons was constituted. But, with all these circumstances staring them in the face; with the avowal of the existence of the practice made in the House, at the periods to which he had alluded; with the illus

them so

last came the ass, who, with much hesitation and shame, confessed that he had once purloined a cabbage; upon which the other beasts loudly and unanimously exclaimed against him as the obnoxious criminal, and instantly tore him to pieces as a just sacrifice to offended heaven [a laugh]. Similar was the conduct pursued by that House. But miserably deceived were they if they thought by such conduct they could retrieve the character which they accused others of endeavour

ing to run down, and which he admitted | of Mr. Ferguson, he was the last man to was utterly lost and gone. By throwing give an opinion upon it, having (he rethe broad shield of impunity over the peated, not been present at the discussion noble lord and the right hon. gentleman, of that individual's conduct. It was quite they had partaken in the offence against impossible, however, to mistake the hon. the constitution of which those individuals baronet's views in this business, or to had been guilty. Well might Ferguson doubt that this was one of the many efsay, that although he was aware the laws forts so perseveringly made by the hon. rendered that which he had practised cri- baronet for the destruction of the conminal, yet that the House of Commons, stitution and of the character of parliaby their treatment of the noble lord and ment. his colleague, had given a different inter- Mr. Wynn observed, that if he underpretation to those laws; that they were stood the hon. baronet's object, it was, now to be considered obsolete; that the that the House should rescind that which House of Commons, by a distinct de- it had already determined, not because it cision, had declared that the practice had determined erroneously, but because which those laws contemplated as uncon- nine years ago it had omitted to do its stitutional was not so; and that it would duty in a case somewhat similar in its cirnot call down on those who joined in it cumstances. To that omission he was no the vengeance of parliament. He would party. He was certainly at the time in not take up more of the time of the House, favour of further proceedings. Still it was for the case lay in a small compass; but, a decision of parliament, and was a preunder the circumstances which he had cedent, but whether to be imitated or mentioned, would merely move "That avoided was a fit subject for consideration. Thomas Ferguson be forthwith discharged." It would be a sad thing, indeed, if, because Lord Castlereagh said, that he did not the House had in any single instance negknow any thing of the case of the indivi- lected its duty, it could in no subsequent dual in question, not having been present instance perform it. He would not enter when the proceeding was taken by the into the case of Ferguson, for the hon. House, on the report of the committee of baronet had not touched upon it. Indeed, privileges, to whose consideration that the hon. baronet had not thought the case case had been referred. It was very evi- of sufficient importance to attend the disdent, however, to him, that the only ob- cussion upon it; but a week after it was ject which the hon. baronet had in his disposed of, the hon. baronet came down, present proceeding was the common one and, without notice, proposed to the with that hon. baronet, of endeavouring House to rescind their deliberate deterto find in any part of the transactions of that mination. The hon. baronet had laid no House some impeachment of the charac-ground whatever for his motion. What ter and dignity of parliament. He generally observed, that whenever any incident occurred which seemed to show that the hon. baronet did not fill the space, which in his own opinion, he ought to occupy in the public eye, he endeavoured immediately to recover at least a portion of his lost popularity, and on the day succeeding such disaster, to try to regain the esteem of the worthy characters whose approbation he courted, by some proceeding similar to that which he had just originated, and consonant to the feelings and disposition of the persons whom he wished to conciliate. With respect to the circumstances to which the hon. baronet had alluded in the course of his speech, he could assure him that he felt no soreness whatever. The subject had been fully discussed and determined upon by parliament. And as to the propriety of acceding to the motion of the hon. baronet for the liberation

too

took place in another parliament in 1809 was no ground. Besides, it was not correct to say that the noble lord escaped without censure: although certainly he (Mr. Wynn) thought the censure mild. The next year parliament passed an act to remove some doubts which existed on this subject by declaring acts similar to that with which the noble lord had been charged penal offences. With respect to the other case in 1810, to the decision in that case, he (Mr. Wynn) was no party. But the ground of it was that parliament having just passed the act to which he had alluded, it would not be just to make its operation retrospective. To accede to the hon. baronet's motion would be to declare that the bribery of electors was no offence, and to annul all the prac tice of our forefathers from the earliest periods of the history of parliament. these grounds it appeared to him to be

On

impossible that the House could entertain the hon. baronet's proposition. Whenever the case might come regularly before the House on the petition of the individual suffering under its displeasure, it would then be a fit subject for consideration, but at present it was not so.

willingly witnessed the introduction of the charge against the noble lord, and the right hon. gentleman nine or ten years ago. He had most reluctantly felt himself bound on that occasion to vote for the resolution inculpatory of their conduct; but having done so he felt it a duty to maintain his consistency by pursuing a similar course with respect to Ferguson. If the House were to agree to his hon. friend's motion, it would be at once to declare to the country, that all irregularities or breaches of privilege with respect to elections were thenceforward to pass unnoticed and unpunished. In his conscience, therefore, he must oppose the motion; though he confessed he was at a loss to understand how those hon. members who rejected the former resolutions inculpatory of the noble lord, could reject his hon. friend's present proposition.

Mr. Curwen observed, that the bill which he introduced several years ago would have gone far to remedy such evils as that to which the attention of the House was now called, had it not been deprived of all efficacy by the amendments which were engrafted on it.

Colonel Wood said, that the hon. baronet, who was so ready to accuse others of undue practices in election matters, would perhaps remember when, in his first contest for Middlesex, he had little prospect of being returned, three hundred millers voted for him as proprietors of a mill which was not built, and of which they had become possessed but the preceding night! that the sheriffs were sent to Newgate for gross partiality to the hon. baronet, and the election was declared void. On the second contest of the hon. baronet for Middlesex, never was there a greater display of universal suffrage. Persons who were qualified, and persons who were not, were indiscriminately polled, until prosecutions for perjury were set on foot, and many of the votes abandoned; and eventually the hon. baronet did not obtain his seat. Perhaps the hon. baronet might remember the third election for MiddleSir F. Burdett, in reply, observed, that sex, at which he was a candidate, and at as the noble lord had said so little on the which all the practices resorted to at the subject now before them, he did not think second election were exposed and brought it necessary to take any notice of what to light; and at which, while the present had fallen from him. As for what the member for Middlesex polled 3,000 votes hon. colonel had said about the Middlesex the hon. baronet polled only 800. This elections, he certainly had a perfect rewas the history of the hon. baronet's con- collection of all the proceedings contests for Middlesex. If he had forgotten nected with them; indeed, no man had them the electors of Middlesex had not: less reason to forget them than he had. and were the hon. baronet to start a He had twice experienced the remedy fourth time, he would experience the same which the House in its wisdom had result. thought proper to provide in cases of contested elections; and he could assure them, that to enjoy that benefit a third time would be out of his power. As to the votes of some of the electors on that occasion not being connected with property, the observation came badly from the hon. member, who ought to know that most of the votes for the boroughs in the country were wholly unconnected with real property. The mill votes, which the hon. member had mentioned, were objected to, and the election was, in consequence twice referred to a committee; but that committee, though they had set aside the election, never came to a decision upon those votes. They were got rid of in a general way, on the ground that the owners were never assessed to the land-tax. The observation upon that

Mr. Brand regretted the introduction of personalities into the present discussion. His hon. friend had alluded as slightly as possible to the individuals whom he had been obliged to mention-[A laugh from the Treasury bench].-Gentlemen might laugh, but they might remember the hon. baronet said, he rather wish ed, on the occasions to which he had adverted, that the offence should be visited with a light hand, because it was one of such general notoriety. He did not, therefore, think that the hon. baronet had pressed the subject in a way that ought to be at all offensive to the noble lord or to his personal friends. His object in now rising was, to state the reasons which prevented him from concurring in his hon. friend's motion. He had most un