Steinway tunnel in the shape of a fan, and in turn feed the sub

way.

Q. Well, evidently the Queens Company, the New York and Queens, has been a failure from the start, hasn't it? A. Yes, it has been a failure from the start.

Q. When was it acquired, did you say? A. Sir?

Q. When did you say it was acquired, in what years? A. In 1903 and 1904. Principally for the reason that we were unable to get the tunnel constructed in time and lost the franchise and therefore it did not have any value as a feeder or as a connection with the subways, which we anticipated when we bought the property.

Q. What year was it that you discovered that the Steinway tunnel was not available because your franchise had expired. A. I think it was in 1910 that the franchise ran out; sometime around there.

Q. So that you have been carrying the New York and Queens for nine years without any prospects of aid or assistance in developing the Interborough? A. I should not want to say without any prospect, because we felt right along

The Chairman.- Well, put it "at a loss."

The Witness. At a loss is correct, yes, sir. We felt all along that it could become a valuable feeder sooner or later to the Interborough, especially after the subway was extended over into Queens.

Q. Well, it proved a loss before you started in constructing the Steinway tunnel, and it has been a loss since the Steinway tunnel franchise expired? A. It did not prove a loss before we started constructing the tunnel, because it was started about the same time or just a little after we acquired the Queens property.

Q. Well, did you ever make any money out of the New York and Queens Company? A. No, sir, I would like to say, in justification at the time in buying the road, that the year before, two years before it was bought, the Queens County lines earned a little over one per cent on the capital stock and the year before we bought it it earned 27/8 per cent on the capital stock.

By the Chairman:

Q. What was the capital stock? A. $2,350,000.

By Mr. Burr:

Q. Who owned that stock? A. It was owned by miscellaneous interests in Cleveland and Philadelphia.

Q. Any body in New York at all? A. Not that I remember. I don't think so.

Q. Was there a mortgage on it? A. Yes, sir; there was a $3,000,000 mortgage. It is an amalgamation of underlying lines over there.

Q. What rate of interest was paid on the mortgage? A. Four per cent and five per cent.

By Mr. Burr:

Q. Who held the mortgage? A. It is held by the public. By the Chairman:

Q. By whom? A. By the public.

By Mr. Burr:

Q. That is, the bonds are issued on the security of the mortgage? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what bonds are outstanding? A. About $3,000,000. By the Chairman:

Q. Was the interest paid on the bonds? A. Interest has been paid on the bonds, yes, sir, but not earned.

By Mr. Burr:

Q. Well, was the mortgage put on the property, after you acquired it? A. No, sir.

Q. You took it subject to that mortgage? A. We took it subject to the mortgage, yes, sir.

Q. Had the interest been paid on that mortgage prior to your acquisition of it? A. Yes, sir; the interest had been paid; and as I said, practically three per cent earned on the stock.

By the Chairman:

Q. Since your company took it over they have made nothing? A. No, sir.

By Mr. Burr:

Q. What did it cost? What did you pay for it? A. I think the stock cost between 90 and 100.

Q. Who negotiated the purchase of it? A. I think the purchase was negotiated through August Belmont & Company. Q. Do you know what their commission was? A. I do not, no, sir.

Q. They did get a commission? A. That I do not know.

Q. Well, were they employed by the Interborough to acquire his property? A. I rather think they were, but I am not sure of that. I imagine they were.

Q. Where would it appear what was paid to August Belmont & Company as agents on the securing of this railroad property? A. The records of the company will show that, I think.

Q. Will you procure those records? A. Yes.

Q. Will you get me the same information, written with the same detail, in regard to this road, as to the number of miles of the road and how many cars and other details, which were acquired by your Interborough Company? A. Yes.

Q. Are there any other lines in Queens Borough that the Interborough is interested in? A. Yes.

Q. What are some of those lines? A. The New York & Long Island Traction; the Long Island Electric.

Q. The New York & Long Island Traction, did you say? A. Yes.

Q. Where does that run? A. That runs from Mineola and Hempstead and Freeport.

By the Chairman:

Q. Mr. Belmont lives at Hempstead? A. Yes.

Q. From where did you say that ran? A. From Mineola to Freeport, a distance of 7.8 miles; from Hempstead, Queens, and from Freeport to the Borough of Queens. The sidings amount to 4.31 miles, a total of 34.15 miles, single track.

1

Examination resumed by Mr. Burr:

Q. That was intended to be a feeder to the subway? A. That was intended to be used in connection with the New York and Queens County Line.

Q. That was intended to be used in connection with the New York and Queens County Line? A. Correct.

Q. That was intended to be an elongation of the New York and Queens County Line? A. Correct.

Q. And both were intended to be feeders of the Interborough Rapid Transit Company? A. Yes. That road then was purchased jointly through the Long Island Railroad.

Q. Through the agency of August Belmont? A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what they received for acting as agents in the purchase of that railroad property? A. No, sir.

Mr. LaGuardia.— That can be ascertained?

Mr. Burr. That information you will also supply?

The Witness. Yes, sir.

Mr. Quackenbush. In response to your question, we will give you a statement of the Queens Lines set out just as the data was set out that we gave you today as regards the Rapid Transit Lines.

Mr. Burr. We have all been in a brown study about it for quite some time.

Mr. Quackenbush.- If you have been in a brown study about it, you ought to understand it, because I can get that information for you in about two hours.

The Mayor. Is not that line a sort of feeder to the elevated lines in Brooklyn, or, is it not more of a feeder to the elevated roads in Brooklyn than to some railroad in Queens?

The Witness. No, I should not think we would be buying any feeders for the elevated roads in Brooklyn, because they are our competitors.

The Chairman.- It runs pretty close to them.

The Witness. Yes, it does, but it was the intention to connect up the branch lines.

Q. How much money has been advanced by the Interborough to these companies since their acquisition by the Interborough? The Chairman.— To that particular company?

Q. (Continued) Yes, to the Queens? A. The advances to the New York & Long Island Traction and the Long Island Electric were very small. I don't know at the moment exactly how much those advances were but I can get the figures for you. The advances to the Queens County Lines were quite large.

Q. That amounts to five million or six million dollars? Something like that, yes.

A.

Mr. LaGuardia.- Mr. Fisher, I want to get this clear. Do I understand that the New York & Queens Railway Company, you said, was a merger for all these lines out in Queens that did not pay? That is correct?

The Witness.- No, sir; I did not add that they did not pay. Mr. LaGuardia.- Oh, but all these lines have mortgages?

The Witness. All these lines have mortgages, yes. This merger of the Flushing and College Point Railway, the Newtown Railway, the Steinway Railway Company, and the small section called the New York & Queens County Railway Company is what you have in mind. It was a merger of all those lines.

Mr. LaGuardia. And they were merged in this New York and Queens Railroad Company?

The Witness.— Yes.

Mr. LaGuardia.— And there are mortgages outstanding?

The Witness. There are mortgages outstanding to the aggregate of $3,000,000.

Mr. LaGuardia.- Exactly. And the value was at $2,500,000, you said, did you not?