people are going to be treated differently at different times. There is no consistency.

Mr. LENT. Mr. Mansfield.

Mr. MANSFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LENT. I said Mr. Powell, I am sorry. I thank you for your comment. Whenever you travel the same way day after day or week after week, you will find there is often a great disparity in treatment. I know that one day passengers will be treated more courteously than on another day. You will find these disparities even within an airline. Sometimes the airline wants to search you more carefully than others. Sometimes they make you open your suitcase, and sometimes they don't. A lot depends on the intelligence level and the particular standard of courtesy of the individual airline personnel with whom you will happen to come in contact with at a given time. I guess there are always going to be some variances in the manner in which people are treated, handicapped or nonhandicapped.

Mr. MANSFIELD. Yes, sir, I recognize that, and I would like to also add that I think for the most part, the air carriers, since we are discussing them, have made a concerted effort to attempt to do something, but I don't think they have achieved what they set out, the goal that they set out to achieve.

Mr. LENT. I wonder if the continued existence of these travel barriers to the disabled indicate that there is still a general lack of awareness of the part on the industry to the specific needs of the handicapped?

Mr. MANSFIELD. I would agree, but it is getting better. The more education that occurs, the more that people are able to explain what the problems are, the more that we are able to sit down and talk with different groups, the more that we are able to get them to understand what our problems are, then the less they are going to be.

However, we have seen over a period of years that we have not been able to accomplish what we wanted with the facilities we have available, including Federal legislation or regulations now.

Mr. LENT. Can you give us some more specific ideas? We all agree that there should be more education, and more informational programs made available. Can you give me an example of an informational program or what kind of an educational program it should be?

Mr. MANSFIELD. For example, one of the ideas that I can think of, as I mentioned in my testimony, sir, that we just had a meeting last month with members of the Air Transport Association. We went over a number of issues there, part of which will be sent to Access to the Skies to have that group work with them. But one of the points that came out of that is that PVA as an organization in conjunction with other organizations, is going to be making an effort during the next year to work within, for example air travel, to work with the folks in the airlines that train their personnel. In other words, we will try to train the trainers, and see if we can't get some more information put forward that way.

Mr. GASHEL. We have already been doing that. Two airlines, Delta and Frontier, have in fact invited our national president, and we have done this, to work with them and make training films

which are now being shown to presumably every flight attendant and gate agent and people who are coming through the system ready to serve the public. So that should help.

Mr. SNIDER. One of the areas where I think there needs to be real concern with this-let me give you an example. It is one thing to show a guy who works for the airline a video tape, but it is another for them to have a hands-on experience with a handicapped passenger and be able to have an interchange and feel comfortable with a handicapped person.

There are a number of handicapped people who are qualified to work as consultants, to do training in this field, lots of them. I am one, and quite frankly, the airlines and other carriers haven't sought out that kind of consultation, so that their staff, be it senior or junior or otherwise, hasn't been able to have very much or enough of a hands-on experience with handicapped people so that they feel comfortable about it, and so as a result of that, you get asked a lot of funny questions about travel by airline staff and other staff, personnel in the travel industry when you travel, because they just don't know. They haven't had the experience.

Mr. LENT. Ms. DiPietro, did you want to say something?

Ms. DIPIETRO. In connection with something Mr. Gashel said, Delta also has a training video tape to train its flight attendants to work with hearing impaired people. I agree that the hands-on contact would be an important thing. I do see the whole concept of training being an important one, and it has to be consistent within the industry and deal with the different disabilities and needs of different disabled travelers.

Also, I believe that travel industry personnel have to know what is available to serve different disabilities and be able to share the information. I know that hearing impaired and deaf travelers often don't know where TDD's are, for example, in the airport, and the travel industry people don't know themselves, so they can't share that information.

Also, the telephone directories should list prominently TDD numbers for emergency access, or for access to public information in the locality, so that a deaf person can call. That is a fairly simple accommodation, I believe.

Mr. LENT. I thank you.

I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FLORIO. Let me express the committee's appreciation to this panel of witnesses for their contribution, and we do certainly appreciate your participation and look forward to working with all of you in the future as we try to resolve some of these problems legislatively and administratively.

Mr. MANSFIELD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. GASHEL. Thank you.

Mr. SNIDER. Thank you.

Ms. DIPIETRO. Thank you.

[The following material was submitted for the record:]

Discussion Draft

A BILL

To provide equal opportunity for the blind, and the otherwise disabled to utilize facilities and services commonly available for travel, tourism, and public accommodations and for other

purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SHORT TITLE

"Sec. 1. This Act may be cited as the "Handicapped Americans Travel Opportunity Act".

"POLICY AND FINDINGS

"Sec. 2. The Congress hereby finds and declares that the denial to blind and otherwise disabled persons of equal access to places or facilities of public accommodation and transportation, and to related business establishments, has the effect of impairing the interstate commerce of the United States, both by constricting the free flow of goods and persons and by preventing blind and otherwise disabled persons from achieving their maximum potential independence and productivity. To remedy this inequitable and unproductive condition, it is the policy and purpose of this Act to utilize the full authority of the United States Government to secure the civil rights of blind and otherwise disabled persons from unfair discrimination in accommodations, transportation and related business activity.

ENTITLEMENTS AND PROHIBITIONS

"Sec. 3. (a) The blind and the otherwise disabled are entitled to full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of all common carriers, aircraft, motor vehicles, railroad trains, motor buses, street cars, boats and cruise ships which call at United States ports or any other form of public conveyances or modes of transportation, hotels, lodging places, restaurants, places of public accommodation, amusement or resort, and other places to which the general public is invited, subject only to the conditions and limitations established by law and applicable alike to all persons.

Nothing in this Act shall

entitle any blind or otherwise disabled person to any accommodation, advantage, facility, or privilege (or to their modification) other than the accommodations, advantages,

facilities and privileges commonly available alike to all

persons.

"(b) In accordance with subsection (a) of this section no common carrier by air, rail, water, or motor vehicle, or other mode of public transportation, engaged in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce shall refuse to provide to any person because of such person's blindness or other disability the services offered alike to all persons nor shall such carrier impose on any such person any limitation which is based on such person's blindness or other disability, such person's use of a dog guide or other guidance instrumentality, or upon such person's use of other equipment used to provide mobility nor shall any such person be required to pay an additional or special fee for

the transport of such dog guide, other guidance instrumentality or other equipment used to provide mobility.

"(c) In accordance with subsection (a) of this section

no owner or operator of any place of public accommodation, as defined by section 201 (b) of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (42 U.S.C. 2000a (b)), or of any public facility or building covered by title III of such Act, or of any facility or building belonging to the United States or its territories, or the District of Columbia, shall refuse to provide to any person because of such person's blindness or other disability the accommodations or services commonly offered alike to all persons, nor shall such owner or operator impose on any such person any limitation which is based on such person's blindness or other disability, such person's use of a dog guide or other guidance instrumentality or upon such person's use of other equipment used to provide mobility nor shall any such person be required to pay an additional or special fee for the admission of such dog guide, other guidance instrumentality or other equipment used to provide mobility to such place of public accommodation or to such public facility or building.

"(d) No person shall engage in any subterfuge, device, or covert strategy for the purpose of achieving indirectly any of the forms of discrimination prohibited by subsections (b) and (c).

"JUDICIAL RELIEF

"Sec. 4. (a) A civil action alleging any violation of this Act may be brought by or on behalf of any blind or disabled person or any group of such persons in the appropriate United