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Mr. Brown. May I say that what we would do would be to announce an open competitive examination, but we would limit it strictly to persons of these qualifications. Then we would certify three men to the Director of the Census, and he would recommend one of them to the Secretary, who would appoint him. That would be the procedure.

The Chairman. But that is rather contrary to the last two sentences of this first paragraph, if you can characterize it as a paragraph, "these officials to be appointed by the Secretary of Commerce, upon the recommendation of the Director of the Census," and then you add, "in conformity with the civil-service laws and rules." Now, that would take away from the Secretary of Commerce and the Director of the Census any discretion in the matter.

Mr. Brown. That would take away their right to nominate anybody except one of those certified as eligible.

The Chairman. That would take away their right to nominate anybody, because you would throw it open to the whole country. There seems to be a little conflict there?

Mr. Brown. They could nominate one of the three who were certified.

Doctor Hill. We have those officials in the Bureau of the Census now, and they have been there for a great many years; those positions, both of them, have been there for 25 or 30 years. Now, this is to take care of men in the bureau who are holding these nominal positions now. And we could do that in the decennial census period.

The Chairman. Of course, the representatives of the Civil Service Commission say that they would advertise throughout the country for men?

Mr. Brown. Only in case the Director of the Census did not recommend a person who was eligible for promotion under the rules. Now, Doctor Hill would be the statistician under this paragraph, and he would be eligible for promotion to the job, so far as that is concerned, under civil-service rules.

Mr. Hirsch. Doctor Hill is the assistant to the director at this time, and has been for some time. That is a position that we have in the bureau.

The Chairman. What I am trying to get at is that there seems to be a conflict of authority in this paragraph of the bill that I have just read, and that a difference seems to exist in the minds of the gentlemen on my left, who represent the Civil Service Commission, and the gentlemen on my right, appearing for the Census Bureau. The statement just made by the gentlemen of the Civil Service Commission, was that they would advertise and spread information about the positions about the country, and that all could apply for them who wished; and that from those applying they would present three names to the Secretary of the Department. And we know the same thing is done in the Post Office Department, although some of those

Eositions are not under the civil service—three names are submitted y the commission to the head of the department. Mr. Rankin. If these men are already employed in the Bureau of the Census, why give them the right to do that?

The Chairman. Well, it simply gives them the power and the authority that the director now has. You are under civil service already, are you, Doctor Hill?

Dr. Hill. Yes. I would like to ask Mr. Brown this question, Mr. Chairman: This really creates a new position. There is no such thing as assistant director, is there now, technically under the law. I act in that capacity and I sign myself as "Assistant to the Director." Suppose this is a new position to be filled; the director would be able to fill it from anyone now in his bureau, would he?

Mr. Brown. Our announcements always say that the positions will be filled as a result of this examination, unless it is to the interest of the service to fill them by promotion, reinstatement, or transfer. Now, if the director has anybody who has a civil-service status, as in the case of Doctor Hill, he can be appointed. The position should, in our judgment, be left under civil service; but the director would have a perfect right to recommend any one in the bureau who had the civil-service status for promotion to that position.

Doctor Hill. In that case there would be no examination held?

Mr. Brown. Absolutely not.

The Chairman. But why is it necessary to put this under civilservice rules?

Mr. Hirsch. Suppose there is a vacancy and you did not have this language in the bill, then the vacancy might be filled without any conformity to the civil service law.

The Chairman. Why should it not be?

Mr. Hirsch. That is a question of policy. If you want it under civil-service rules, then this language serves the purpose for future requirements.

The Chairman. Not according to the statements that the gentleman from the civil service made here. He made the statement that the Civil Service Commission would announce that there was a position of that character to be filled; and that an examination would be held and that they would submit names of three persons to the Secretary of Commerce for appointment. Now, under civil-service rules, or one thing or another, Doctor Hill might not be included in that.

Mr. Hirsch. When you say "under civil-service rules," that also . includes the policy of promotion; does it not, Mr. Brown?

Mr. Brown. Certainly.

The Chairman. Then why hold an examination?

Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, I do not make myself understood. I said we would hold an examination, unless the Census Bureau had some one with a civil-service status whom they wished to promote.

Mr. Kankin. Now, here is one thing I would like to know: The Director of the Census has the right under the present law to appoint a man as anniBtant to the director, or many men as assistants to the director. Thou why make this change in the law at all? Why not just let him mi Director of the Census go ahead and appoint the men as assiBtnnts to the director? They are doing the work now.

The CitAlitMAN. There might be a little more authority by giving him express power to appoint assistant directors.

Mr, Han Kin, Well, it would give him two more assistants by law to do the union work. I am not much in favor of increasing positions.

Don tor 11 MX. This would not necessarily result in increasing positions, It would ho merely an increase in salary.

Mr. Jacobstein. Perhaps Mr. Brown would answer this question, What is the law at the present time under which this position is created?

The Chairman. If you will permit me to interrupt you for a moment, Mr. Rankin has just made a suggestion to me which I think is apropos in this matter, and that is that we have prepared a committee draft of this bill and have it printed, together with the existing statutes.

Mr. Jacobstein. That will cover what I had in mind.

Mr. Rankin. I will make the suggestion, Mr. Chairman, that a copy of the bill with the existing laws be inserted at the beginning of these hearings, for the benefit of those who read the hearings.

The Chairman. Yes, at the beginning of the record of the hearings. I think that would clear these matters up a good deal.

Mr. Rankin. Doctor Hill, you have said that the difference between the assistant directors and the assistants to the directors is a difference in salary. How much is it?

Doctor Hill. How much is the difference in salary?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

Doctor Hill. I could not say.

Mr. Rankin. What is your present salary?

Doctor Hill. $5,600.

Mr. Rankin. What would your salary be as assistant director?

Mr. Brown. Probably $6,000.

Mr. Rankin. The duties would be the same?

Mr. Brown. That is a question for the classification board; but I think it would be $6,000.

Mr. Rankin. As I understand you, the director has a right to appoint men under him to the position of assistant to the director?

Doctor Hill. Yes.

The Chairman. That is as it is at present.

Mr. Rankin. Yes; that is as the law now stands.

The Chairman. Is there any limit to the number of assistants to fie director that the director may designate?

Doctor Hill. I do not know that there is.

The Chairman. Excepting the financial end of it?

Mr. Hirsch. In the fundamental law establishing the Bureau of the Census, the chief clerk acts as acting director in the absence of the director, and there can be only one acting director. Now, in order to make this legal and under the law proper, the director asks for these two assistant directors to conduct his business.

The Chairman. I see; you are the acting director?

Mr. Hirsch. I am the acting director during his absence.

Mr. Rankin. If you and the director were both absent, who would act?

Mr. Hirsch. There is no one who could act.

Mr. Rankin. Could the assistant to the director take charge?

Mr. Hirsch. He may take charge, but he could not sign papers as acting director.

Mr. Rankin. Do you mean that the authority could not be delegated to him to sign the director's name?

Mr. Hiesch. Not under the law, the existing law at least. That is what makes it so inconvenient that only one person can be designated to take the director's place.

The Chairman. I might say, for the benefit of all of us, that this bill (H. R. 393) provides not only for the taking of the Fifteenth Census, but all other subsequent decennial censuses; and it is very important on that account.

Mr. Rankin. Now, under the law giving the director the power to appoint these two assistants, and giving that authority, that would solve the problem, would it not?

Mr. Hirsch. I think it would.

Mr. Johnson. Would that not be going out of the authority of the Department of Commerce, of which the Bureau of the Census is a bureau?

Mr. Hirsch. These people like Doctor Hill understand the work in all its phases. I have been there myself 28 years. It is not as though we were working along a single line. We have 150 different inquiries to follow up.

Mr. Rankin. I do not think it would be going outside of the Bureau of the Census. I think that, on the other hand, it would be holding it in the Bureau of the Census to make the change suggested. But I think the men who have been working all these years in the Bureau of the Census would be better qualified for that work than men coming from the outside, I do not care what their qualifications are.

The Chairman. I do not think this paragraph contemplates getting men from the outside. I think, from the statements made here, that it contemplates the designation of men who are already there as assistants to the director.

Mr. Johnson. Will you allow me to ask one other question?

The Chairman. Certainly; go ahead.

Mr. Johnson. The Director of the Census is himself an appointive officer, is he not?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Johnson. Then that comports with the plan of the organization of the departments of the Government. He is a chief of a bureau, and is appointed under the administration. But all the other officials under him are civil-service men and in recent years have come under this classification law. And personally I think it is a mistake, even though we have a great census to take, which is a tremendous operation, to upset the arrangements which have been so long in building up for a uniform plan of bureaus in the department under the Secretary.

Mr. Rankin. The Director of the Census is not confirmed by the Senate, is he?

Mr. Hirsch. Yes.

Mr. Rankin. But the chief clerk is not?

Mr. Hirsch. No.

Mr. Rankin. And the chief clerk has the same authority that we would be conferring on these assistant directors. I am not in favor of broadening the power of putting politicians in these places or leaving the gap open for putting politicians in these places.

Mr. Johnson. I am not either.

Mr. Rankin. When we need men who have had technical training.

The Chairman. Yes; I agree with you as to that.

Mr. Johnson. I agree with you; and I am inclined to think this is a complete plan for what you have in mind.

The Chairman. I think this covers that.

Mr. Rankin. Well, we can take that up in executive session.

The Chairman. We will now proceed to the next paragraph of the bill, H. R. 393.

Doctor Hill. The next paragraph in section 3, page 2, of the bill, provides as follows:

In addition to the force hereinbefore provided for, there may be appointed by the Director of the Census, without regard to the provisions of the classification act, for any period not extending beyond the decennial census period, at annual or piece-price rates of compensation to be fixed by him, as many temporary employees in the District of Columbia as may be necessary to meet the requirements of the work.

Now, of course, we have to employ a very large temporary force.

The Chairman. Right there, let me ask you this: What is the particular definition of the words "any period not extending beyond the decennial census period"?

Doctor Hill. The decennial census period is three years from the 1st of July, 1929. That will expire in 1932.

Mr. Rankin. Before you get too far from that, I want to go back for a moment to section 2 of the bill and ask you a question about it, if you are going to discuss these sections in numerical order.

Doctor Hill. Yes. That is at the top of page 2 of the printed bill.

Mr. Rankin. Do you not think it would be wise to insert a provision there that this report of the census shall be referred to Congress for its information and its approval and its use? Has that not been done in the past?

Doctor Hill. The report of the census—the statistical reports, do you mean?

Mr. Rankin. Yes.

The Chairman. The section merely says, "And the reports upon the inquiries provided for in said section shall be completed within such period." Are they not made to the President now?

Doctor Hill. No.

Mr. Rankin. What I had in mind was a provision of this character:

Provided, That as soon as practicable, the Director of the Census shall certify the figures of the census for the total population of the United States and the total population of the States and their respedtive counties to Congress, for its information, approval, and use.

Doctor Hill. I see no objection to that. We do that anyway. We will do it. I do not see any objection to it. Do you see any objection to it, Mr. Truesdell?

Mr. Truesdell. No. Of course, we should be allowed to publish the figures before Congress approves them.

Mr. Rankin. I understand that you would publish the figures before Congress approved them; but they would not be declared as official until Congress had the opportunity to approve them?

Doctor Hill. We certify them.

The Chairman. I think that is what Mr. Rankin has in mind.

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