We found we could not do it by letter, but we had to send out a staff of salesmen. We sent out our own men who were specially trained, and we have discovered in the figures we have collected that they are very important. During the war the Government had only the Harvard figures to operate on. We discovered it is generally only the upper strata who want to give us figures. It is impossible to get figures from the great majority. They can not keep accounts and can not be induced to do it. We are getting the cream of the business to give the figures to us.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I have read your reports. I am interested in that work. Should we not spend-I am not sure and I am asking for information-would it not be wiser to use that same amount of money that we are going to spend in getting information from retailers, instead of getting it universally from all retailers, spend that same amount of money in intensive study later by the Census Bureau, picking out certain commodities or businesses and getting information that is accurate and worthwhile, rather than getting it haphazardly? Doctor GAY. I have a very clear judgment on that point. We are making an interesting sample at Harvard. The chief thing that sample needs is just that thing Doctor Surface spoke of, certain measuring sticks. I do not know what percentage of the grocers in the United States are active. We do not know the number of groceries. There are certain basic facts which can only be obtained by the United States Government. We want to get fundamental facts. The CHAIRMAN. You think under the authority of the Government these facts could be obtained.

Doctor GAY. There is no other way.

The CHAIRMAN. You said you had some difficulty in Harvard from the humbler merchants in getting these figures.

Doctor GAY. Yes, but the people of the United States have confidence in the census.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Could we get the profits and other data from coal people?

Doctor GAY. I should not recommend the Government attempting to make that inquiry. It will block the whole business. The first step is to do what we are doing now. Bit by bit when the people realize this information is valuable they will demand it.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. What will be the effect after we have made these studies and you have revealed the spread between the retail price and the price the farmer gets? Will it alleviate the problem or intensify it?

Doctor GAY. I do not know now.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I have been informed that the spread between the farmer and the manufacturer is very great.

Doctor GAY. May I ask if you know those figures? I do not know them.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I do not know them.

Doctor GAY. It is impossible to do anything but guess at them.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. If these statistics are going to reveal the information that some of us think it will reveal, an enormous spread indicating an enormous cost in distribution, it is not going to make the farmer feel good.

Mr. SURFACE. I think it is very important, but if the farmer knows it is being done by legitimate cost of actual distribution, he can not

complain very much. A large part of the cost is necessary. That is one of the important facts. There are wastes. We will not know what the wastes are and can not stop them and can not check useless wastes until we have knowledge.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. There will be resistance from those who do not want to give it.

Doctor GAY. I thought I would find it here. I was asked to speak at the annual meeting of the chambers of commerce on the same subject, and I thought there would be opposition of business men. They must answer the census. I thought there would be opposition. Quite the contrary. They gave that unanimous backing.

Mrs. KAHN. They are that upper crust.

The CHAIRMAN. These samples were prepared by the Census Bureau and chambers of commerce, or with the National Chamber of Commerce. There seems to be some unanimity of thought.

Doctor GAY. I can speak for the economists and statisticians. They know this is necessary, if we are to know about the distribution system in the United States. I can not speak for manufacturers, but I believe I can say this, 10 years ago there would have been opposition in the chambers of commerce, and now it is disappearing. They want the information. It is necessary for the intelligent management of business to-day. That is the real problem. The CHAIRMAN. We will adjourn until 10.30 o'clock to-morrow morning.

(At 12.05 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Thursday, January 19, 1928, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE ON THE CENSUS,
Thursday, January 19, 1928.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. E. Hart Fenn (chairman), presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. I think, in order to expedite matters, we will proceed at once, and we will hear Mr. Ogg first.

STATEMENT OF W. R. OGG, REPRESENTING THE AMERICAN FARM BUREAU FEDERATION

The CHAIRMAN. Will you please state your name and whom you represent.

Mr. OGG. William R. Ogg; representing the American Farm Bureau Federation.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you located here in Washington?

Mr. OGG. Yes, sir; I am assistant to the Washington representative, 601 Munsey Building.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the interest of our organization, of course, in this bill centers mainly around the agricultural schedules, and in our desire to secure as adequate and accurate information as we can concerning agriculture.

There are just a few features of the bill that I would like to call your attention to and suggest a few changes.

In section 4, on page 4 of the bill, providing for the fifteenth decennial census and subsequent censuses, I notice the wording is changed somewhat from the act authorizing the former census. It states as follows:

The number, form, and subdivision of the inquiries in the schedules used to take the census shall be determined by the Director of the Census with the approval of the Secretary of Commerce.

I believe in the 1900 census, and in the 1910 and 1920 censuses, the items which were to be included in the schedule for the census of agriculture were specified, and it seems to us to be wise to continue that practice of specifying the general lines of inquiry which the census of agriculture should cover; but in addition to that I should like to suggest that these general lines of inquiry be specified as they were in the 1920 census, with this additional clause:

And such other items as the Director of the Census shall determine, with the approval of the Secretary of Commerce.

That, it seems to me, would not restrict the Census Bureau-
The CHAIRMAN. You would broaden it, in other words?

Mr. OGG. I would simply specify my idea would be to specifyin the act the general lines of inquiry, not specifying the questions, of course, but specifying the general lines of inquiry just as has been done in the preceding decennial censuses, and then add a clause which would allow the Director of the Census to include in there items that in his judgment would seem to be proper. That would give sufficient elasticity to take care of any unforseen matters which might come up, upon which information would seem to be very important, and at the same time it would assure that you would bave an adequate census of agriculture.

As to the date of the census, section 6 of this bill, H. R. 393, page 5, provides as follows:

The census of agriculture shall be taken as of the 1st of the prceding November. It is provided in that same section that the census of the population shall be taken as of the 1st day of April. It seems to us that it would be, perhaps, wiser to take these two censuses at the same time. So far as the farmers are concerned, to have the census of the population taken in April and the census of agriculture taken in November simply means that two different enumerators will have to come and consume the farmers' time, and in April the farmers are very busy; and it seems, in the interest of economy-economy of the Government as well as the farmers' time, that

The CHAIRMAN. Would you take them both in November?

Mr. OGG. I would suggest November 30 or December 1 would be, as far as the farmers are concerned, and as far as our interest in securing agricultural information is concerned, a very good date.

There are a number of reasons why I would suggest that particular date, one reason being that we would like to see the census data, and the estimates and information gathered by the Department of Agriculture, as nearly identical in the period of time covered as possible.

The CHAIRMAN. You understand this is a decennial proposition? Mr. OGG. I understand; but the Department of Agriculture issues estimates every year, and some estimates monthly, and they need.

some base figures with which to correct and adjust those estimates; and if the census data are gathered during the calendar year, or during the fiscal year in the same period that the agricultural statistics of the Bureau of Agricultural Economics are gathered, it affords the Bureau of Agricultural Economics a better basis upon which to adjust their estimates.

The CHAIRMAN. I am going to ask you, do you not feel that the figures found by the Department of Agriculture are as accurate as may be? Why have them, if they are not?

Mr. OGG. We would like to see those figures extended, and covering even more than they cover now.

The CHAIRMAN. Why can not the Department of Agriculture ascertain those figures as far as the law may allow, without reference to the Census Bureau; or why do they exist?

Mr. OGG. The point I am trying to make there is that if we take the census, for example, December 1 or January 1, that would cover approximately the calendar year. Most of the figures published by the Department of Agriculture are issued either for the calendar year or for the fiscal year, and if the census figures are taken for the calendar year, it will give the Department of Agriculture a set of figures upon which to check up their estimates:

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but under the law do they not have to work independently of the Census Bureau?

Mr. OGG. They work independently, but on some of these estimates which are not gathered by an actual census, but from estimates made on the basis of reports submitted by, say, 10,000 of 15,000 reporters, they are only estimates, and they need some accurate census information upon which to go back from time to time and check up on the accuracy of those estimates.

The CHAIRMAN. We will presume that the census is taken in 1930. What would the Department of Agriculture do in 1933, and of what avail would it be to them?

Mr. OGG. After one year it would not be of any especial avail. The CHAIRMAN.-There is a 10-year period when the figures of the Department of Agriculture would be of no patricular avail. In other words, for one year they would depend on the figures of the Census Bureau, and then that would cease.

Mr. OGG. It would supply them with a basis for the next five-year period, because there will be a census in between the decennial

censuses.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand; but why maintain that department? Why not let the census do the whole thing?

Mr. OGG. Because five years or ten years is too long a period for much of the information that the Department requires.

The CHAIRMAN. But you are saying that this should be put in this bill, and it seems to me if the Department of Agriculture is obliged to depend on the Census Bureau for the ascertainment of their facts and figures, and the checking of their estimates, as you have termed it, what particular use is the collection of data by the Department of Agriculture?

Mr. OGG. Perhaps I did not state that accurately. I perhaps should not have given the impression that they depend on and get their figures from the Census Bureau. But, of course, in making any

kind of an estimate, it is always helpful to have an actual census to refer to, to check up on the estimates.

The CHAIRMAN. This bill provides for a census.

Mr. OGG. Exactly; the only thing I am trying to say here is that it would help the Department even more if the period covered by the census was more nearly comparable to the same period that the department covers. And there are other reasons. I just offered that as one reason which appeals to me, why the date should be the 1st of December rather than the 1st of November.

Another matter that might be mentioned is that if the censuses should be taken together, I certainly hope that the committee will not see fit to make the date April 1.

Mr. RANKIN. Why?

Mr. OGG. Because April 1 is a very busy time with farmers.
Mr. RANKIN. What farmers? Did you ever live on a farm?
Mr. OGG. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Whereabouts?

Mr. OGG. Down in Virginia. Kansas, however, is my home State. Mr. RANKIN. As a matter of fact, right there is a proposition upon which we should agree, and we might as well question him now. April is a time when the farmers are at home on their farms?

Mr. OGG. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it not a fact that that condition would prevail then more than at almost any other time of the year?

Mr. OGG. Most of them would be at home; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. If you wait until some time when you can find all of the farmers idle, and you will find these farmers on their farms, you will have much more trouble to get the information that this census is trying to develop, will you not?

Mr. ŎGG. If you put it in the summer time, I would say that would be true, in the summer. During certain idle periods in the summer, in between, crop operations that might be true. But I would not think that around the 1st of December you would find many farmers away from home.

Mr. RANKIN. As a matter of fact, more farmers are away from home in the wintertime than any other time of the year, are they not?

Mr. OGG. That has not been my observation.
The CHAIRMAN. Throughout the country?

Mr. RANKIN. Throughout the whole country. You will find that the farmers are crowded into the towns. There are a great many of the farmers in this part of the country who go to town to spend the winter. You find them in Florida in December. They go to California, many of them.

The CHAIRMAN. And to Alabama and Mississippi.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. You find them down there.

Mr. MOORMAN. It is unquestionably true in my section of the country, in the wintertime, at the time you suggest here, November or December 1, you would probably find 5 per cent of the population would be working in automobile factories and other industries in the cities; and then they return to the country to use their ground and make their crops and things of that sort.