agriculture, population, and distribution. I think that will cover what has been inquired about. There are other things besides cotton and tobacco. I am in a big tobacco-producing county myself, a county that produces more than any other county in the Union.

Doctor HILL. The census covers farm property, number of acres, number of acres in different crops, whether the farm is operated by owner or tenant, farm expenditures for hay, grain, labor, fertilizer, etc.; the various kinds of livestock on farms, horses and mules, cattle, and swine; dairy products, milk produced on farms, milk and butter sold, etc.; and the various crops, acreage, and production. There are other things, but that, in a general way, is the census of agriculture. The CHAIRMAN. That is taken every five years?

Doctor HILL. Yes; and we get the information from the farmer himself.

The CHAIRMAN. That gives the aggregate from each crop.
Doctor HILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And do you attempt to place the value on it?
Mr. AUSTIN. We covered the value of the crops.

Mr. RANKIN. That is not your distribution census?

Doctor HILL. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. I am talking about the distribution of raw materials as it leaves the farmer, every pound is graded and can be kept up with and its distribution according to grade can be shown. Until that is done we might as well not have anything at all.

Mr. MOORMAN. How does the distribution feature of the bill work with reference to tobacco? What facts and figures will be shown with reference to tobacco under the bill?

Mr. SURFACE. These experimental censuses only refer to manufactured products, cigars, cigarettes, manufactured tobacco, snuff, etc., showing the volume of sales, the stores through which it is sold, and I might refer to the fact in Baltimore it shows cigars and tobacco products go through 19 different classes of outlet, including toy stores, theaters, all kind of things which bring out information which was not known before.

Mr. MOORMAN. I am not interested in what was shown in these particular censuses that were taken. I am asking you in the event the law is passed as written here, with reference to distribution, what will be shown as to tobacco.

Mr. SURFACE. It is my understanding it would show the purchases of tobacco by manufacturers. Then we would have the sales of tobacco products from the manufacturer, from the wholesaler, from the retailer, and locality where it was done.

Mr. MOORMAN. Is that all it would show as to tobacco?

Mr. SURFACE. That with various other features, amount of labor employed in such stores; also wages and subsidiary things.

The CHAIRMAN. It would include everything with relation to distribution.

Mr. SURFACE. It would not include everything. It would go a long way in that direction.

Doctor HILL. Possibly there nay be a little wrong idea about this census, from the use of the word "distribution." We do not want to trace the distribution of the product from factory to consumer through in its various channels.

Mr. SURFACE. No; we find the amount that goes through the different channels. We are not tracing the identity of one parcel of tobacco after it leaves the farm until it is sold in the store.

Doctor HILL. It is a census of the wholesale and retail trade. Mr. MOORMAN. Can you tell the amount of tobacco on hand and in whose hands it is, at any time, approximately, from what you propose to put in this proposition in execution?

Mr. SURFACE. It would show the stocks on hand at the time the census was taken. This is only a census to be taken at infrequent intervals.

Mr. AUSTIN. We report now in the census of agriculture the acreage and production of tobacco by counties and States. We have reports from individual counties. For 12 or 15 years the census office, acting under the Cantrell bill-Mr. Cantrell who introduced the bill, coming from Kentucky-we collect quarterly during the year stocks of tobacco, production of cigars, cigarettes, snuff, and chewing tobacco. Every two years we get a complete report in the census of manufactures of the manufacture of tobacco products, and that also includes the costs of materials used in manufacturing. We do that now under special law.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mr. Austin, the Bureau of Census probably every year or periodically shows the carry-over in cotton, does it not? Mr. AUSTIN. We make a statement only on the domestic carryover, so far as our reports from mills and warehouses show. Mr. RANKIN. You show how much is in the warehouse?

Mr. SURFACE. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. How much is in the hands of mills?

Mr. AUSTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you give the grades of that cotton?
Mr. AUSTIN. No, sir, we do not.

Mr. RANKIN. Whenever you give the carry-over at 5,000,000 bales, that leaves the impression that there are 5,000,000 bales of merchantable, spinable cotton. There is a way to arrive at the grade of this cotton, and we are going to insist from now on that the grade of the cotton be given in the carry-over.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. Doctor Gay, of Harvard, is here. I think we ought to give him a little time. We are discussing matters not connected with the bill, except a very remote connection. There are acts in existence which could, by amendment, cover what you are talking about.

Mr. RANKIN. I think this covers distribution.

STATEMENT OF DR. EDWIN F. GAY, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMIC HISTORY, HARVARD UNIVERSITY

Doctor GAY. I should very much have preferred to let the conversation continue. It has been enormously interesting and stimulating for me to hear this talk.

I came here on a basis of historic precedents, anticipating that there would be opposition to the census. On the contrary I find a very intense interest in getting more figures than we have. The past experiences of censuses, if I may say a word, is enormously interesting in that respect.

As you look back to history, you will notice that every forward step involves the getting of more information. It has been put through, and there has been no retrograde act. Nobody has asked the census to do less than in previous years.

The United States, I think it may be safely said, although we have things to learn from foreigners, has constantly taken the lead in census operation.

The first national census in 1790 was provided for constitutionally. From 1830 on our census shows a study of figures in regard to production. We had a notable census in 1860-an extraordinary censusthe best in the world at the time, and we have gone on expanding the census.

Up to 1900 this country has been decidedly more interested in the locating of our national resources than any other problem, and for that reason it has been perfectly natural that the bulk of our interest has been to get agricultural production, mining production, manufacturing production. It is perfectly logical that that be the case. Since 1900, we have been going steadily and inevitably into a new period in the economic history of the United States. We are bound from now on to pay much more attention than we have in the past to the problem of our internal markets, and that is primarily what we are asking now as the first step to be taken. That is why it has interested me so much to listen to this conversation, being anxious to get more information on these problems.

I have a great deal of sympathy with the point Mr. Rankin and the others raised. We need more information than this census will give you. This is the first step practically into a new field. The idea which some economists and statisticians have is we shall put a census taker behind every single producer in the United States. It can not be done as probably we might wish, but we should like to know vastly more upon just the questions you are raising.

You are raising this question from a practial standpoint of your constituents. We should like to know more of the facts. We should like to know not merely the question of production from the farmers, but we should like to know the various lines through all the intermediate steps.

We know what the manufacturer does. We have not got the detailed information we ought to have as to the kinds of commodities he is getting and his disposition of them. We have no information at all upon what happens after it leaves the manufacturers' hands. We know his total sales and total production, but now we come to this great market in the United States. There is the gap. That is really the problem we have to face.

I had, as I said, expected opposition. On the contrary we are finding an increasing demand for these censuses by cities. There are more applications than there is any possible means of carrying out. Not merely manufacturers, but retailers and manufacturers want to know, and one reason why America has led in census work is that we have been an intelligent country. America has led primarily—and I say this as an economist-has led because we have been interested enough to know that after a point you can not guess. You must know. We are demanding more knowledge.

Several years ago a small group of economists were invited by the Census Bureau to act as consulting representatives, and they pointed out that one of the chief deficiencies of our present census is this problem of selling through the retail and wholesale outlet.

That does not cover the whole problem of distribution. There are intermediate steps which are not yet covered. I am not sure it is wise to ask too much at once. We are asking for knowledge about retail and wholesale outlets which we have not had before. We have reached the point where we must know. We know something about our foreign exports. Our foreign exports cover 10 per cent of our whole market. Ninety per cent of out market we know nothing about, and we are making a sensible beginning and starting with the retail and wholesale outlets. It is extremely important from the standpoint of the economist, and I believe of great consequence to business men.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Will you tell what you want, Dean Gay, in the main?

Doctor. GAY. The main items are included in this present test census, which gives us about all we can ask for at present. They are giving the number of establishments.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. You are asking more than that, are you not? Doctor GAY. No, not at present. We shall be glad to get more, but bit by bit we ought to feel our way. Our business men say now that they are overflooded with questionnaires. We can not use them too far. We can not ask too much. We are getting the number of establishments, the employees, salaries and wages of employees, inventories, average, and on December 31, sales from stores, independently owned and chain stores, merchandise outlets for all classes of stores, all classes of commodities.

I remember the Department of Commerce when I was down here visiting a couple of years ago had a very considerable manufacturer of electrical appliances apply to it. He came down asking about his outlets in New England, and felt quite sure he knew the outlets in New England. He was immensely surprised to know of his very inadequate information, because the information in the hands of the department indicated six or seven times more than the amount he knew about. He had no conception of how electrical appliances were being sold, not only through hardware and electrical stores, but in drug stores and all manner of places. That will be brought out. We will find for the benefit of dealers and for the public what the various outlets are, so that the markets can be known.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. To what extent do you think the Federal Government ought to go on spending money to collect and disseminate information for the benefit of the trade, occupation and businesses, which some folks think they ought to collect for themselves. What is your idea about that? How far would you go? Where would you stop.

Doctor GAY. Well, it is impossible to say exactly, but I am not interested from the standpoint of trade. I am interested so we can understand the problem of distribution. There are very serious wastes in our distribution in the United States. We really know nothing, have no real information how to handle the problem until we get some basic facts, and we are asking for those.

In the second place, and as far as the trades are concerned, the real problem for this country will not be done only by economists, but by cooperation among manufacturers, retailers, and wholesalers in intelligently, wisely and effectively handling their problem. They can not do this now unless they know their problems. I am not speaking merely of the big folks. I am talking even more in reference to the smaller people.

There are two classes in this country that the Government ought to help the farmers and small retailers. These are the men who have no means of helping themselves. Congress is largely considering taking care of the farmer. It has done nothing for the small man who has no chance of getting into the economic life except in small retailing. A man starts out in a small way in a business concern.

In Baltimore more than half of the retailers are doing a very small business, and they do it blindly. They do not know if they should start in Baltimore or Washington or move to Oklahoma. They have no idea where they ought to go. It is going to be possible to tell these people that we have enough grocery stores in one place. They will not crowd into an overcrowded location. That seems to be a matter which should be of the very greatest use to the smaller men who can not take care of themselves. They can not get this knowledge.

I do not know that I want to add much more than I have, except to say that the economists of this country and statisticians are to a man back of this project. They want this done. This is a beginning, and a very useful beginning. It does not cover it all, but bit by bit can be added. I would like to see more done for the manufacturer, but this is one step further.

The CHAIRMAN. Could not the Census Bureau, in their census of manufactures, cover those things if they saw fit? Have they authority?

Doctor GAY. I do not know.

The CHAIRMAN. The bill, of course, is very large in what it allows them to do. It does not define what they shall do. So far as taking the manufacturing census, of course they prescribe themselves what they will take.

Doctor GAY. Mr. Chairman, may I add one word to that: I imagine it is not so much in the expressed provision of the bill as it is in the appropriation that is given. A certain number of questions can be asked in a given appropriation, and other questions must be omitted.

The CHAIRMAN. The chairman and members of the committee realize that.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Out of the experience of Harvard, what is your experience in getting information from retailers? We know the splendid work your school has done in getting material together from retailers. To what extent can you get this information, and what reliance can you place on the data secured.

Doctor GAY. The graduate school of business administration started years ago, and they obtained some figures on the cost of distribution. They went to the concerns, associations, and through the associations got their backing to go to the individual dealers, wholesalers of shoes and groceries, and then we had to induce them.