information on manufacturing, but when it comes down to the things going through the retailers and wholesalers, we have no real information about what is taking place.

The CHAIRMAN. The only information you have is for these several cities.

Mr. SURFACE. Yes. These are samples to see what could be done, and of what use it is going to be.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask you a question: I see in Baltimore under kinds of business you have many things, among which are bakeries, boots, shoes, building material, candy, confectionery, tobacco, clothing, dairy products, poultry products, drugs, dry goods, notions, florists, and so on down to toys and stationery, soft drinks, ice cream, and plumbing and heating supplies, everything that is conceivable almost in the retail trade, and at the end of it you have miscellaneous, and the number of establishments canvassed in Baltimore was 1,327. You have the persons engaged in this work. These are the experimental figures, but I take it that in the distribution, in your collation of figures in regard to distribution, it will be somewhat similar to those plans.

Mr. SURFACE. That is a sample.

The CHAIRMAN. This was done by the Census Bureau in collaboration with the respective chambers of commerce in the cities mentioned? Mr. SURFACE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Here is Providence, Syracuse, New York, sample cities that you took. This is prepared in connection with the domestic distribution departments of the chambers of commerce of the United States; Seattle; Atlanta, Ga.; and Kansas City, Mo. They took, as far as they could, the different regions of the country.

Mr. SURFACE. I think it should be said that these cities each requested the surveys be made in their particular cities and the Chambers of Commerce contributed very largely to the work and to the success of handling the work. In other words there is a demand for this kind of information.

The CHAIRMAN. I am sorry to have interrupted you.

Mr. SURFACE. The thing I wanted to get across to you was that there was a real demand and a real need for this kind of information. It is something we do not have, and there is nothing which fills the gap, and our whole distributive system at the present time is in a state of flux.

We have chain store development, cooperative wholesale buying, hand to mouth buying, and we are trying experiments in this direction and that. We are getting chains of department stores, and it appears we are trying to find out how best to do these things. We have no information to guide these experiments. As a matter of fact it is working in the dark. If we could have real information as to the volume of business and the outlets, through which it passes, it would be of the greatest assistance to distributors in putting their house in order, in aiding and lowering the margin between producer and

consumer.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be the special advantage of this knowledge, if obtained?

Mr. SURFACE. It is always hard to answer that kind of question, Mr. Chairman. It is like the census of manufactures. You say

what is the advantage of the census of manufactures. To my mind the biggest advantage of that is it gives us fundamental data from which to clarify our thinking about these processes; in other words, we have got measuring sticks in the manufacturing industry that we set up and see where we are going.

Between 1923 and 1925 we increased the value of our production in the manufactures of this country by $2,500,000,000 and we did it with 400,000 less men employed.

Mr. RANKIN. How long was that?
Mr. SURFACE. In two years.

Mr. RANKIN. The last two years?

Mr. SURFACE. 1923 to 1925.

Mr. RANKIN. Increased it how much?

Mr. SURFACE. $2,500,000,000 of output.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the reduction in the number of men?

Mr. SURFACE. Approximately 400,000.

Mrs. KAHN. Does that include the automobile industry?

Mr. SURFACE. That includes the automobile industry, all manufacturing industries.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that due to advancing prices or increase in the volume?

Mr. SURFACE. There was no significant increase in prices between those two years. It was due to increased efficiency, labor-saving devices, improved management, and various features of that kind, in my opinion, at least. Those are the facts.

Mr. MOORMAN. Who benefited by that outside of the manufacturers?

Mr. SURFACE. I can not tell you who benefited by it. The manufacturer is complaining very much because he can not make any money at the present time.

Mr. DEROUEN. Those experiments inured to the benefit of some business, but did they benefit the ultimate consumer.

Mr. SURFACE. Ultimately those things reflect back to the consumer without any question, but immediately it benefits the manufacturer who is able to put in a better device to lower his cost of production. He gets an edge on the other fellow, but ultimately that whole thing reflects back to the consumer.

Mr. MOORMAN. The $2,500,000,000 you referred to covers what period?

Mr. SURFACE. Two years.

Mr. MOORMAN. Does that mean up until this day?

Mr. SURFACE. No, sir. That was between the last two censuses of manufacturers, between 1923 and 1925.

Mr. MOORMAN. The effect has not reached the consumer so far, has it?

Mr. SURFACE. I would not say that. I do not know but what it has.

The CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact, the manufactured cost has not increased the price. As I have understood it has kept level.

Mr. SURFACE. We have had the phenomenon of a falling price during the last two years since 1925. Prices have been falling. The wholesale price index shows a marked decline.

The CHAIRMAN. The magnitude of business has increased.

absolutely where the products go that are exported from this country. We do not know about the products in this country, or how they reach the consumer. The point is to determine the amount of business, the amount of business done by retailers, by wholesalers, the number of them, distributors, and jobbers.

Mr. RANKIN. What articles do you propose to include in this? I did not get here to hear your opening statement.

Mr. SURFACE. It is a long list of articles. There are some 70. Mr. RANKIN. I am interested particularly in agricultural products. I want to know what agricultural products you have.

Mr. SURFACE. Here is the list on the questionnaire that was used. Many of these are manufactured products. This is the way in which the products reach the consumer. Here is tobacco production, all of those things which come from agriculture are specified as groceries, hay and grain feed, etc.

Mr. RANKIN. I glanced over that list and you left out America's greatest commodity, and that is cotton. Why was that done?

Mr. SURFACE. Cotton does not go to the consumer as cotton. It goes as cotton goods. You have that here.

Mr. RANKIN. Your proposition is to take the manufacturer and give his distribution, but you do not give the distribution as to the producer of raw material.

Mr. SURFACE. We have that information fairly well. We know the consumption of cotton by the cotton mills. The Bureau of the Census already compiles that information. That is where your cotton goes. Nobody buys cotton to use as cotton.

Mr. RANKIN. Take cottonseed production. That is about the third or fourth largest crop in America. What do you propose to do with that?

Mr. SURFACE. I doubt if there is anything in here which will show that, because most of that does not go directly to the consumer. I think the Bureau of the Census compiles information on cotton-seed products, fats and oil.

Mr. RANKIN. As to fats and oils everybody knows the quantity is not arrived at until it is extracted from the seed and becomes a commodity of the oil mills and manufacturers.

Mr. DE ROUEN. I believe you are driving at the right thing. The distribution of products in your State is very important. You are beginning to go into a diversification, from the chicken to the vegetable and everything that the Department of Agriculture is advocating and fostering so much, and the distribution for instance, of vegetables. I do not know if it is in your district, but Mississippi cream and milk and all those things. To my idea there is lacking something in the entire distribution problems of our country. Where it is I do not know. I am too busy, and even if I was not busy I would not be able to find out. There is something lacking in that entire distribution. There is something wrong. We produce in one part of the United States so much that it rots. You can not do anything with it. How to arrive at the solution to prevent that I do not know, but if we could arrive at a solution it certainly would be helpful. I believe very much in the problem of distribution.

Mr. RANKIN. I am not antagonistic to this legislation, but I have got to the point that I am going to demand that agriculturists be

given exactly the same benefits of this legislation that the manufacturers get. They are not getting it to-day, and the distribution of products, agricultural products, is just in chaos and you can not tell about it. You can read the records of this department or any other department, and you will not be able to tell.

Now, a most unfortunate situation grew out of the Department of Agriculture attempting to give the carry over of cotton, you understand. They took the distribution figures of the United States given out by your department and got hold of some European figures and bolstered up the carry over of cotton considerably more than it amounted to, and drove the price of cotton down. It cost our farmers hundreds of thousands of dollars overnight.

If we are going to pass this law, I want this census of distribution of farm products and dairy products just as thorough as that of manufactured materials.

The CHAIRMAN. Is not that in this list?

Mr. SURFACE. Dairy products are included. When you go to the retailer you must deal with the products he handles.

Mr. RANKIN. Why did you not do this?

The CHAIRMAN. There is included groceries and delicatessen.

Mr. RANKIN. Take this cottonseed proposition. You can take these figures and read them until doom's day, and you can not arrive at anything like a definite conclusion as to the amount of cottonseed that is produced. The thing we want is a census of distribution of this material up to the time it goes into the hands of the manufacturers, and then if you want to carry it from there on that will be all right.

Mr. SURFACE. That is a very important phase that should be covered, to my mind. I think the distribution of industrial products would be the way to get at it, that is, the products which industry buys, where they buy them and how much.

Mr. RANKIN. Why could you not take it in this way: Get the distribution of all farm products as far as they go as raw materials, until they go in the hands of the manufacturers.

Mr. SURFACE. That will be possible.

The CHAIRMAN. Is not that already in the bill?

Mr. RANKIN. I do not think so.

The CHAIRMAN. That goes to the primary product.

Mrs. KAHN. I think that is covered.

The CHAIRMAN. When this product gets to be Quaker Oats it becomes a grocery, and then it goes to the retailer.

Mr. SURFACE. You can go to the Quaker Oats Co. and find out how much oats they bought.

Mr. RANKIN. The Government departments are neglecting it, and it is an unjust discrimination against the men who produce this material. I will take this cottonseed proposition. About 500,000,000 bushels of cottonseed were produced in the United States last year. It is the easiest crop in the world to arrive at. There are 33% bushels to each bale. It is just as easy as any figures you can make. You do not give that in the numbers of bushels that are sold or that are. produced. You do not show how many are kept on the farm; how many are used for planting purposes. You do not show the number of million bushels that are used for feed, but

you go here and you talk about the amount of oil. All right; you say so many pounds of refined oil. Why do you not carry that on as you have started and show how much of the cottonseed, we will say, is used for various purposes, feeding, planting, and manufacture, that is, crushed by the oil mills, and then why not take the oil up to show what becomes of it.

Mr. SURFACE. That is the point of this bill.

Mr. RANKIN. You bave got the same authority under the old law. Mr. SURFACE. I do not think so.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you get this authority to give the amount of refined oil.

Mr. SURFACE. The Census Bureau will have to answer that. I do not know.

Mr. RANKIN. I am trying to find out what your proposition is. Say, for instance, they produce 200,000,000 gallons of oil. Now, if this bill passes in the form that you are asking for it, with this provision, will you take that cottonseed oil up and show how much of it goes, we will say, into the manufacture of soap?

Mr. SURFACE. We can find out how much is purchased by the soap manufacturers. That is true.

Mr. RANKIN. You will show how much is used by soap manufacturers?

Mr. SURFACE. Presumably it goes into soap when they buy it.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand, but if they are interested in getting the census of distribution into the record, why it seems to me that they would be interested to give you the information to show what they did with this amount of vegetable oil.

Mr. SURFACE. I think that can be brought out.

Mr. RANKIN. Take, for instance, the packers. Would you trace that and show how much of this goes into lard, cottolene? The CHAIRMAN. That is a primary census.

Mr. SURFACE. We have that to a considerable extent.

Mr. RANKIN. You know that and right there they shut us off. Cottonseed is controlled by the trusts dominated by one or two soap manufacturers in the United States, big soap manufacturing combinations.

Mr. DE ROUEN. Does not cottonseed go into fertilizer?
Mr. RANKIN. No. The meal does.

If we are going to take a census of distribution, you start out here: Here is a concern that manufactures these paper weights, these inkwells. You take that up and you show where it goes, where it is distributed, in order to give those fellows the benefit of that information as to where the field for distribution lies. That is the object of this legislation.

Mr. SURFACE. The object would be as much for agricultural products as this, all commodities.

Mr. RANKIN. You were going to take these agricultural products and trace them on through, and show where they go and how they are distributed?

Mr. SURFACE. Yes; that is the idea.

The CHAIRMAN. You are going to take ultimate distribution?
Mr. SURFACE. Yes.