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Mr. MORGAN. There is not very much that I can add to what Mr. Brown has said. He has informed you as to what is regarded as the desirability of placing these people in the classified service. I might add a word as to the practicability of it, that there is no occupation for which we have not at one time recruited.

We have no reason to believe that we can not fully recruit at any time in any numbers qualified persons to fill the positions under discussion.

Our system of informing the public as to openings reaches every nook, hole and corner in the United States.

It is without cost to the Government. The newspapers regard information of that kind as news and print it as such. We have our announcements in public libraries and other prominent places. We have 50 radio stations that regularly broadcast our announcements, and our experience has been that there is no difficulty whateverthere is nothing in the way of the performance of this job if it is given us to do.

The CHAIRMAN. How many examinations do you presume you would have to hold if this feature should be introduced in this bill? I think some one said there would be about 2,000 in this list. When I get an announcement from you I send it to newspapers in my district and they print it. In a short term period of employment of this kind, how many applications do you think you would have from an advertisement of that kind, some of the work being in vacation time, and how would you handle the 50,000 applicants that you will have in time to have them ready to be selected and designated for work at the time the next census should be taken? How long were you in taking the examinations of prohibition agents before you came to your decision as to what they were? They were a limited number. Mr. MORGAN. May I answer the first question first and the other one afterwards?

The CHAIRMAN. You may.

Mr. MORGAN. First, of the 2,000 special agents I think it is safe to say that 90 per cent of them would go in without examination at all, because they would be employed for a very short period.

The CHAIRMAN. How could you do that?

Mr. MORGAN. Placing positions under the civil-service rules does not necessarily mean that we have to hold an examination in case of a short-term employment. The civil-service rules cover all contingencies, as Mr. Brown explained.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not required to advertise?

Mr. MORGAN. Not for a short-time job. The civil-service rule fully provides for job employment without examination. All the bureau has to do is to report the employees that they have accepted to us; I mean very short periods for special jobs.

The CHAIRMAN. How many special agents do you think would come under that practice?

Mr. MORGAN. I do not know how many would be required for longer than sixty days.

The CHAIRMAN. How many?

Mr. MORGAN. I do not know. I can not tell you.

The CHAIRMAN. You said a great many could come in. Why could not all of them come in?

Mr. MORGAN. For the simple reason we are trying to prevent an opportunity for an abuse.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the abuse?

Mr. MORGAN. Mr. Brown, I think, explained that to you.

The CHAIRMAN. He cited a dozen cases. If you say without this examination and without this advertisement that you can certify them to be special agents, what is the use of putting that in this bill? Mr. BROWN. I said the civil-service rules provide not only for the Census Bureau, but if the position is temporary, short time, there are no requirements for an examination. The departments are permitted to pick up men wherever they please for a job employment when we have no available list. We give them blanket authority to do that. When the employment is for a long period of time we should require an examination. It would be a matter of several months, I should say. I can not say how many will be employed that long.

Mr. REED. Approximately how many men would you say who are appointed under this blanket authority for short time positions during the year are certified by you, but there having been no examination?

Mr. MORGAN. We do not certify them.

Mr. REED. Make the appointment.

Mr. MORGAN. We let them pick them up and report them to us. Mr. REED. What is the object of reporting them to you?

Mr. MORGAN. We have to have a report of all persons employed in the civil service for the records.

Mr. REED. That has nothing to do with their qualifications.
Mr. MORGAN. No,sir; it has not.

Mr. REED. If you have a list of those, approximately how many are appointed regardless of qualifications, that come through your office? Mr. MORGAN. I do not understand your question.

Mr. REED. I say how many are appointed for these short-time jobs, whose names are cleared through your office, no examinations being required for the whole Government service?

Mr. BROWN. We have thousands of them for all departments. It is a very usual thing. It would not be good business to try to hold an examination for a small, short-time job.

Mr. REED. Then each department has that blanket authority? Mr. MORGAN. They have to get it from us. We do not give them a general blanket authority. They have to get it from us to cover certain conditions. We do not give any department general blanket authority.

Mr. REED. What I was trying to get at, and I am only looking for information, is exactly why, if they have this authority to make these appointments, they come to you, why they clear through your office. Mr. MORGAN. All appointments in the civil service have to be reported to our office; we must prevent illegal appointments.

Mr. REED. These are not strictly speaking civil service, because that presupposes an examination to show their qualifications.

Mr. MORGAN. When I say "civil service", I am using it in the broad sense. All positions in the executive branch of the government are in the civil service. A good many people use the term "civil service" in a wrong sense. What they mean when they say

"civil service" is the classified service. All civilian positions in the executive branch of the Government are in the civil service. I was using the term in this broad sense then. The civil-service rules fully provide for authority of the commission to allow job employments, and the commission never refuses to grant that authority when the circumstances justify it.

Mr. REED. Suppose that a man is appointed to one of these shortterm jobs, and he shows every qualification-that is, in the character of work that he does-but they want to continue him beyond the time which ordinarily would be allowed under your rules. Would you hold an examination then to see if he was qualified?

Mr. MORGAN. Not necessarily, not in an individual case-
Mr. REED. He would be on the permanent list, would he?
Mr. MORGAN. He could never go on the permanent list.
Mr. REED. Regardless of the character of his work?

Mr. MORGAN. He could never go on the permanent list except through examination. The temporary employment might be extended. Those cases are decided on their merits. He can not go on the permanent list without a competitive examination.

Mr. REED. A person shows every qualification and does a job well, takes the examination, but fails to meet your particular requirements. Is there any remedy at all for that person?

Mr. MORGAN. I do not know of any. Under the law the examinations must be open and competitive. It is quite conceivable that a person may make a lower mark in an examination than a person who is not so well able to do the work. That is possible.

Mr. REED. The reason I asked the question is, in this recent examination, I happen to know of a case where the party was doing excellent work. There was not any question about the character of his work. His superior officers agreed that they really needed him, yet he failed woefully in the examination, and probably will fail next time.

Mr. MORGAN. That situation will arise.

Mr. REED. It seems most unfortunate when a man has shown his loyalty and his ability to transact the business of that particular office, or fill that position, and then he takes an examination and gets, maybe, a marking of 30, where he ought to get 60.

Mr. MORGAN. I think you have in mind a man appointed temporarily pending a certification of eligibles, and then when examination is held does not qualify among the high three.

Mr. REED. It really works an injustice on the superior officer and the man if he can fill his job.

There is another question I want to ask: When a person gets on the civil service list, and it is found that party really does not do the best of work, it is quite difficult, is it not, to get him off the list? He is wished off on some other department.

Mr. MORGAN. That is a matter that is often discussed. There is not a thing in the civil service law and rules that prevents the discharge of a person who is inefficient.

In the first place, all appointments are made on a period of proba tion. During the period of probation, which usually is six months, but may be a year by agreement between the department and the commission, the appointee may be dropped without the formality

that is necessary if the appointment becomes actual. Under the law, after the appointment becomes actual, after the period of probation has been served, if a person is regarded as undesirable for any reason, the law requires that he shall be given a statement of the reasons why he should be dismissed, and that he shall be given an apportunity to make reply, but that is all.

Mr. REED. I want to ask a question.

Mr. MORGAN. May I finish my statement?
Mr. REED. Yes, sir.

Mr. MORGAN. Excuse me a moment; there can be no hearing or examination of witnesses except in the discretion of the employing officer, and if the man thinks he has been done an injustice, in the discretion of the employing officer there may be an investigation, but none otherwise.

The man shall be given a statement in writing, given opportunity to reply, and the whole thing shall be made a matter of record in the office. Some one has said that people are shifted about from one place to another, but my experience has been that that comes largely because of influence brought to bear upon the department. There is nothing in the law or rule that prevents the man's dismissal, but there is pressure brought to bear to save a person's job.

Mr. REED. I am heartily in sympathy with the theory of civil service to get competent and qualified men for positions, but under the civil service as now conducted, and I am not directing criticism against you people-you have treated me well-how far would a well managed corporation get for appointing its employees and office force in that way?

Mr. MORGAN. Through examination?

Mr. REED. Yes.

Mr. MORGAN. May I say that the number of private concerns adopting an examination system is increasing each year.

Mr. REED. Yes, I know that is true, but at the same time they are reserving the right to consider character and personality and other qualifications. If he gets in there under an examination and he can not fill the job and produce he is out. There is not any appeal to that. He is simply out, but under the civil service I think one of its weaknesses is that often times a person gets on the list and seems to be there as a fixture.

Mr. MORGAN. I agree with you. There are a good many things that enter into public employment that do not enter into private employment. We would like to discuss these things with you at length.

The CHAIRMAN. In this bill for the decennial census, you certify a number of special agents. Would that certification carry them to the next decennial census?

Mr. MORGAN. It might.

Mr. BROWN. It would if the bureau wanted them, if the bureau had work for them throughout that time.

The CHAIRMAN. There are intermediate censuses, agricultural and industrial. Would it not place these men in those positions and continue this 13-year woman, whom you spoke of, the number of that class to be increased to the amount of people in court?

Mr. BROWN. No; she has been there fourteen years and we are satisfied.

The CHAIRMAN. If you put those people under civil service, would that not continue until they passed in the natural course of life.

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; there is nothing in the civil service to keep a man there after his position has ceased, after the decennial census is

over.

The CHAIRMAN. You would have to hold another examination the next time?

Mr. BROWN. Ten years from now. They might reinstate those same persons if any of them were good, and we should expect them to be. Mr. RUTHERFORD. I know of a case where there was a vacancy, a clerk-carrier examination was called, and one man and two women were certified by the civil service commission to the Post Office Department. The postmaster in this particular place did not want this man to serve him. He said he could not use the women. His list was exhausted with that situation, so a request was made for a cancellation of that examination, and another examination was called to fill that.

What is the practice of the commission in a case of that kind?

Mr. BROWN. The postmaster could not cancel the list. He could recommend it, but we would not cancel it unless he showed good reason why those three persons could not do the job. Once they have passed the examination they have rights.

Mr. RUTHERFORD. In this case it did happen.

Mr. BROWN. I think you are mistaken; it may be the three declined the appointment, in which case we would have to hold another examination.

Mr. RUTHERFORD. I do not think there was any declination, but I know an examination was called, and from the second list an appointment was made.

Mr. BROWN. There is no such thing as an appointing officer announcing the list is canceled. He can file objections. If those objections are valid we will take the eligibles off. If he shows some reason why the person should not have gone on that register, we will take the name off, but otherwise not.

Mr. LOZIER. Does it not frequently happen under the civil service that a party will be able to qualify by reason of his knowledge of extraneous subjects, wholly disconnected from the particular character of work that he is expected to do, while another man thoroughly efficient and experienced in that particular work may not make the eligible list because he lacks knowledge about other matters which frequently determine the ratings of an applicant in a civil-service examination? Is not that done frequently?

Mr. BROWN. As far as we are able to do it, we make our examinations practical; that is to say, we consult with the bureau involved, find out the duties of the job, find out what is their opinion of the qualifications needed for that job, and all those are included in our announcement of examination. As far as it is possible to do it, we make a practical examination of a man's qualification for that job. Mr. LOZIER. I do not want to be misunderstood. I have the greatest respect for Mr. Doyle, and I believe he is sincere in every

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