Mr. RANKIN. That is one thing.

Mr. BROWN. As long as the postmasters of first, second, and third class remain under presidential appointment, subject to confirmation by the Senate, you can not take politics out.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you not take it out of civil service?
Mr. BROWN. We have it out. We certify three names.

Mr. RANKIN. A man came to my office some time ago who was an applicant for a post office, and said through a deal that another man had been recommended, and he had seen the tentative report of the civil service commission, and this other man headed the list. He went to see a certain United States Senator, and that Senator went to see some other parties, and the first thing I knew the list had been shifted and this man who came out ahead on the list was not appointed.

Mr. BROWN. Any man has an appeal; has a right to have his papers rerated. We have a board of appeals for that purpose. I have seen many, many cases of postmasters where an appeal of that kind was made, and there was no change whatever. I have seen some cases where a careful review did change the order.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. Does the candidate for postmaster have a right to appeal?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Excepting by presidential order, how do the postmasters come under civil service?

Mr. BROWN. They are not under civil service.

The CHAIRMAN. That right of appeal applies to the candidates for post-office positions?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; we offer them the same right.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any appeals?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; a great many. We have a regular board of appeals to consider those appeals, as I say. If I were Postmaster General I would do as he does. I would get my list of three, and submit them to the Congressman and Senator and find out who was going to be approved. There is no sense of sending a name to the President who is not going to be approved; if the Senate would give up its right of confirmation then the Postmaster General could fix it up.

Mr. RANKIN. The Senators from my State do not have anything do with appointments but vote on confirmation. They were not appointed by a Senator. They were being juggled, and the testimony I had before me shows that the Civil Service Commission went back and changed those ratings.

Mr. BROWN. We do that occasionally. We have an appeals board.

Mr. RANKIN. And changed those ratings because of political pressure.

Mr. BROWN. No; I think you are mistaken. I have never known of an occasion where a record was changed for political preference. Mr. RANKIN. I have been very strong for civil service, but I am not willing to extend its prerogatives until it shows its own house is in order, and it convinces me that it gives a fair and impartial examination to the applicants who come under it.

Mr. BROWN. The examiners who do the examining have not any idea whether the man is a Democrat or Republican, what his religion is, or anything about it.

They are rated on the basis of the material before them.

Mr. LOZIER. When an eligible list is made, as a result of an examination, by the civil service under the Executive order, and it is ascertained that certain individuals obtain a place on that eligible list, in instances where the political organization of the city or the county is behind the candidate who does not obtain a place on the eligible list, isn't it a common practice for a special representative of the Civil Service Commission to go into that community and dig around and find some ground upon which he can disqualify one of those parties on the eligible list?

Mr. BROWN. Absolutely not.

Mr. LOZIER. And in that way eliminate that party that will enable the favorite individual to move up.

Mr. BROWN. That never has been in my experience. We investigate practically all the first-class offices. When there is a first-class office to be filled we send a special investigator to investigate the condition. We do that for a great many second-class offices.

Mr. LOZIER. Does not that special investigator go into that community and go to the powers that be, the ones behind this man? Mr. BROWN. No.

Mr. LozIER. That he has failed to make a place on the eligible list, and do they not by every device known to politics disqualify someone on the eligible list so as to move up the gentleman who has the indorsement of the Congressman or Senator or the chairman or a national committeeman in that particular State? Is not that done all over the United States?

Mr. BROWN. I will say it is not being done. We send a man down who has no interest whatever. His job is to get the facts. He goes to everybody in the community that he has any reason to think can give him information, banker, lawyer, everybody, the influential men, the men who would be likely to know. I never have seen a post-office report where there was one iota of political stuff in it.

Mr. LOZIER. The inspector would not put in his report affirmatively showing the facts that influence him. Of course he would not.

Mr. BROWN. He does put in the facts that influence him. That is what he is there for, and that is what he does.

Mr. LozIER. I am afraid you don't know what goes on in the field. Mr. BROWN. They only rate the man properly. They do not know the men who are interested in the candidate.

Mr. LOZIER. Probably you do not know how it operates.
Mr. BROWN. That is the way it operates.

Mr. LOZIER. The inspectors go in the territory, it is notorious, where the organization is in favor of some individual who has not made the required grade, is not on the eligible list-it exists in Missouri and all over the United States-I do not claim the members of the Civil Service Commission have knowledge of it, but it is ridiculous to assert for one moment that appointments under the civil service system or the Executive order are not influenced, and the ratings made and the eligibile list prepared largely as a result of political influence.

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Lozier, I must flatly say that is not the way it works in the Civil Service Commission. I have råted postmasters myself, done a lot of it. I know it is not done that way, absolutely know it. There is no question about it whatever. I am stating what I know, because I have done it. We certify the men who in our judgment are the three best men for that job, regardless of anything else-politics, religion or anything else the men in our judgment who have shown the experience and personal qualification that fit them for that job.

Mr. RANKIN. I must say you convict yourself of inefficiency, and therefore do not justify your contention that your operations ought to be extended to these employees. If that is the case you gentlemen do not know what is going on. You are not giving those men the examination that develops the real qualifications.

Mr. LOZIER. Did not this happen at Keytesville, Mo., where you had an examination and made up your eligible list, and the man recommended was not a citizen? He had not been a citizen for the two years required by law, and if you did not afterwards write a letter to the Postmaster General stating that if you had known the fact that you learned afterwards that you would have certified him, and in spite of that fact you did not withdraw the certification of that individual, and the Post Office Department went ahead and appointed that man, who was not qualified under the law.

Mr. BROWN. I do not know about that.

Mr. LOZIER. I have a copy of a letter from Mr. Doyle in which he recites those facts that he wrote to the Post Office Department and called their attention to the fact that this party was not qualified and he was appointed.

Mr. BROWN. He probably had been appointed.

Mr. LozIER. I believe when the original examinations are held the papers are sent in to the Civil Service Commission for rating; I believe those ratings are made on merit, and the three men who are shown to be best qualified are certified as eligible. I think that is true almost universally, but the trouble comes when some favorite man fails to make the eligible list, and an inspector is sent out into the territory to investigate the matter and almost universally some man who is qualified on the eligible list is disqualified, and the gentleman who has the indorsement of the organization is moved up. The trouble is in the field. It is with these inspectors who go out and are influenced by political considerations, and then they make their report to the board, and their report almost universally is approved. The CHAIRMAN. You are speaking of inspectors of the Civil Service Commission.

Mr. LOZIER. Yes, sir. I think the original rating by the Civil Service Commission is absolutely impartial and technically correct, but the abuse comes when you send those men into the territory, and they are subject to this influence.

Mr. BROWN. I can only repeat what I said before, that our field men go out with the understanding that the one thing they are to get is the facts. They are not interested in politics or religion, but are interested in whether or not he is able to do that job, and whether his neighbors think he is. We go to the best people in the com

munity. We go to all classes and ascertain what they think of his ability to do that job.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be your course in regard to these special agents, on the assumption they should be placed under civil service?

Mr. BROWN. We should consult with the Census Bureau officials, find what the duties are, and what, in their opinion, is the type of man they need, and would reach an agreement as to the kind and scope of the examination, then proceed to establish lists, so as to be ready when they are needed. I think that is all I want to say. I do think this is an abuse which should be stopped. It has been stopped administratively.

The CHAIRMAN. You have cited one case of a man who ran a cardindex machine.

Mr. BROWN. A card punching machine, two women..
The CHAIRMAN. How extensive has that been?

Mr. BROWN. We have no inspection service.

The CHAIRMAN. You ask that we put all these people under civil service, with the exception of enumerators and interpreters, and I think it is up to you to disclose to this committee glaring errors or improper conduct on the part of the special agents that work for the Census Bureau.

Mr. BROWN. It is not improper conduct on the part of the special agent. They appoint special agents and assign them to classified work.

The CHAIRMAN. What is there in the present system that is so bad, as to authority, in putting these people under the Civil Service Commission.

Mr. BROWN. In our opinion there is no reason why they should not be under civil service.

The CHAIRMAN. It is up to you as promoter to prove why they should be.

Mr. BROWN. I have cited certain abuses. The Census Bureau has admitted it and said they have stopped it. I can cite to you a dozen cases of people who have been assigned to stenographic work or bookkeeping, straight classified work.

Mr. GOSNELL. That is over a year and a half ago.

Mr. BROWN. I can cite you people who have done statistical work for years, one for 13 years, when she was supposed to be in the field collecting statistics.

The CHAIRMAN. Who gave her the instructions to do that work? Mr. BROWN. I have no idea.

The CHAIRMAN. You confine the activities of the employees of the census by your right within the limitations of the Civil Service Commission?

Mr. BROWN. No. I say they are limited to the collection of statistics under the fundamental act.

The CHAIRMAN. The Census Bureau is at liberty to collect statistics. That is what the bureau is for.

Mr. BROWN. There is a lot of clerical work and stenographic work.

The CHAIRMAN. It is all incidental. What are you going to do? You have got to have stenographers and typewriters.

Mr. BROWN. I do not think the Census Bureau should contend their stenographic services should be outside.

The CHAIRMAN. You say they have that, some that should be outside, and put them on the inside work?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; they have.

The CHAIRMAN. And on the contrary you say the Census Bureau should not take those inside and put them outside. What are we to get?

Mr. BROWN. They can assign a classified employee here in the city to go out and collect statistics. The reverse is what they do, and we object to their putting into classified work persons who have no classified status.

Mr. REED. How long will these special agents be employed in this work, this 2,000?

Mr. BROWN. Most of them, I stated, for a short period, but I stated they had one person employed in that way, and they continued that employee for 13 years.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that individual do good work?

Mr. BROWN. I have no reason to believe she did not do perfect work. If we held an examination and established her status for appointment, she probably would have stood at the top of the register.

Mr. REED. If she had field work to do she would probably have done nothing?

Mr. BROWN. She did not do any.

The CHAIRMAN. The practice of independent departments, so called, or bureaus of the Government, when another bureau, with great pains and long work, etc., brings before a committee a certain bill for the carrying on of the work of that department or bureau, is it the practice for some other agency to come in and criticize that bill, and by the introduction of extraneous matter attempt to break that bill down?

Mr. BROWN. I do not know what is the practice for other departments, but it is a practice of the Civil Service Commission when they believe the interests of the Government can be furthered by a change of a bill.

The CHAIRMAN. You are the arbiters of what is proper and not proper?

Mr. BROWN. I am simply here to express our opinion. That is all, our judgment, on what should be done.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the practice of the commission in all respects?

Mr. BROWN. That is the practice of the commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you assist States in getting through Civil Service laws?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; whenever required.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a part of your province? In my State you did it so well that they took the law and threw it out of the window.

Mr. BROWN. I believe I have nothing further to say.

Mr. Morgan of our office is here and will be glad to give the committee information as to our recruiting methods, etc. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Mr. Morgan.