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Mr. AUSTIN. Yes, on the amount of cottonseed meal produced, and the amount of oil.

Mr. RANKIN. And the amount of hulls?

Mr. AUSTIN. Yes.

Mr. MOORMAN. He means that he makes that report as received from the mills.

Mr. AUSTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, your schedule gives the amount of that product in tons, and not in bushels?

Mr. AUSTIN. Yes; that is correct.

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Mr. RANKIN. What do you suppose the wheat producers would say if you gave the amount of their crop in tons instead of bushels? I am going to be very frank with you, and I will say that in my opinion the cottonseed crop has not been fairly treated by the Department of Agriculture or the Bureau of the Census; and as a result, the farmers who produce that crop have been the victims. And I am going to insist on a thorough census and a thorough report on the cottonseed crop and cottonseed products; and I am going to insist on the figures being given in bushels. You can give them in tons if you wish; but I want them given in bushels also.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it not given in tons because it is bought in that way for fertilizer?

Mr. WHITE. Is it not handled that way in the markets?

Mr. RANKIN. Not always.

The CHAIRMAN. It is given that way because the consumers purchase it that way, is it not?

Mr. AUSTIN. It is made according to the mill records.

Mr. RANKIN. Some of them do, and some buy it by the bushel. The truth of the matter is that the proper way to measure cottonseed is by the bushel, the same as wheat. And we have got in the way of having cottonseed looked upon simply as an asset of the oil mill and those interested in the manufactured products. The farmer who produces it has had absolutely no consideration. And if we are going to have a census or statistics on one of the greatest farm products in America, we want the matter handled with a view to the farmer's interest, as well as the manufacturer's interest.

Mr. AUSTIN. We will make a record of your suggestion, and proceed to make the next schedule by bushels.

Mr. RANKIN. That is exactly what I want.

Mr. AUSTIN. We already have between 300 and 400 suggested inquiries for the census of 1930; and by the beginning of next year we will probably have between 1,200 and 1,500.

The CHAIRMAN. I think what Mr. Rankin refers to are the monthly reports.

Mr. AUSTIN. With regard to the monthly reports, that will require a change in the law.

Mr. RANKIN. What law?

The CHAIRMAN. Not this law, but the monthly report law?

Mr. AUSTIN. The monthly report law.

Mr. RANKIN. It will not require any change in this law?

Mr. AUSTIN. Oh, no.

The CHAIRMAN. Will it require a change in the special report law? Mr. AUSTIN. I think so.

Mr. RANKIN. I wish you would look that up.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it would.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. At these scientific meetings that Mr. Selvig referred to, and which I also attended, one of the uppermost questions in the minds of the economists seemed to be the question of farm indebtedness not only farm values, but farm indebtedness. Are you going to make a special effort to get more data on that?

Mr. AUSTIN. In the census of 1925, the one we have just completed, there are three inquiries as to farm indebtedness. We got the amount of mortgages. We asked about the amount of personal indebtedness. We got very unsatisfactory answers to that, because the farmer considers it none of our business as to personal accounts. We have had trouble in the past in getting complete answers on mortgage indebtedness. But that trouble has worn away; we had very few refusals this last time. But when it came to the matter of personal indebtedness, the farmer did not report. In a number of cases he told the enumerator that it was none of his business.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Was any effort made to check it up from the banks?

Mr. AUSTIN. No; no effort was made to have a check of it.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. One of the statements made at those meetings was that the farmers were really worse off than the figures indicated, because they were more deeply in debt than the figures indicated.

Mr. AUSTIN. Mr. Jacobstein, I think it is impossible to get the farmers' personal debts, because the farmer is not going to state his personal debts, any more than any other class of citizen's would if the census agent came around and asked him the question, especially since the enumerator is his neighbor, a local man.

Mr. THURSTON. Then, of course, the tenant in possession of the farm would not have any accurate knowledge about the amount of indebtedness against the farm. Now, if your bureau wanted to obtain exact information as to the farm mortgage indebtedness in the country, the only reliable source would be the local public record office, such as the office of the recorder of deeds, where that data could be obtained without any question?

Mr. AUSTIN. Well, that would not be absolutely accurate, so far as farm mortgages are concerned, unless the mortgage had been paid and canceled. Suppose a man had part of his mortgage

Mr. THURSTON (interposing). Yes; but that could only be a small proportion of the whole.

Mr. AUSTIN. That question was thoroughly discussed in 1920. Mr. THURSTON. It would manifestly be impossible for the tenants to report upon the amount of indebtedness.

Mr. AUSTIN. We do not ask the tenants the amount of the mortgage.

Mr. THURSTON. Well, you do not always reach the land owner so that you could obtain that from him?

Mr. AUSTIN. There are the owners who operate their farms, the landlords who rent them out, and the tenants; those are the three classes of tenure.

Now, we ask the owner who operates his farm, the full owner.

Mr. THURSTON. But the owner who rents it out is not in the vicinity of the land; frequently he is a nonresident.

Doctor HILL. We only get the mortgage debt on the farm that is owned and operated by the same man. It must be admitted that we do not get the mortgage debt on tenant farms; we do not try to do it.

Mr. THURSTON. But if there was cooperation with the local record office, this data could be supplied in fairly accurate form?

Doctor HILL. I do not know whether that could be done or not. Mr. AUSTIN. The census definition of a farmer is a man who operates and actually works the farm, rather than one who works on his own farm, with or without hired help. Now, we call a man a full owner who owns and operates his farm himself.

Mr. THURSTON. Who has title to it and operates it?

Mr. AUSTIN. Now, the different classes of tenants we report as farmers, because they are operating the farm.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. But on those operated farms you do not get the full indebtedness?

Mr. AUSTIN. Unless a man owns and operates his own farm, we do not get that.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. When the farms are operated but not by the operators, you do not have accurate information in the census. Mr. AUSTIN. We do, with the exception of farm mortgages. Mr. JACOBSTEIN. That is the point.

Mr. AUSTIN. We do not try.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. That is what I mean. In trying to get a picture of this farm organization in the United States, we can not use the census data, inasmuch as it relates exclusively to tenant operated farms?

Mr. AUSTIN. The tenant himself does not know anything about the mortgage on the farm.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I am trying to show you how incomplete our data is on agriculture.

Mr. SELVIG. Could you not do this? If he refused to let it be known what was the amount of his indebtedness, would you not be able to arrive at a plan whereby some paper with the inquiries on it could be left with the farmer, to be sent by the farmer direct to the Director of the Census, so that that information would be confined to himself and the Director of the Census. Could you not do that?

Mr. AUSTIN. Perhaps that could be done.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you use the offices of record for the purpose of ascertaining those mortgages?

Mr. AUSTIN. We do not, because that is a matter of considerable cost; and because if you want to get a record of the mortgages in the county clerk's offices, that would have to be done through special agents and canvassers, men sent directly to those offices.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it not be a complete census of those mortgages or loans if you did get a record in that way?

Mr. AUSTIN. It would have to be a record of mortgage loans. That would be more nearly a complete census.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me that would be a complete census. If I go to the county clerk's office I can ascertain the amount of mortgages on that property as a matter of course.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. It seems to me that that data should be included in the census.

Mr. THURSTON. To supplement what Mr. Jacobstein has said, I will say that some 30 or 40 per cent of the farms which are occupied are occupied by tenants; so that probably 50 or 60 per cent of the replies could be informative.

The CHAIRMAN. I know a man in Connecticut who owns a large farm in Kansas, 30,000 acres, or something of that kind; and it is divided up, I presume, into various small farms which he leases. He may have mortgages on that property, or he may not; but we will assume that he has. Now, it would be difficult for the census to find out those tenants do not know anything about the mortgages on that property and could not tell the census about that. But if there is a mortgage on any part of that property, it is recorded in the county clerk's office in the county in which the property is located. Now, the census enumerator or the special agent in Kansas making inquiry of these tenants or these lessees could not ascertain what the burden or encumbrance was upon that particular property; and they could not very well hunt up the man in Connecticut and ask him about the farm in Kansas, because they know nothing about him.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Why is it not possible to get the actual owner of every farm in the United States, regardless of who is operating his farm, whether he is living in California or in Florida and his farm is located in Kansas or Connecticut? You have got the owner's name and address; and you can make him fill out the schedule so that you would get the land value and the amount of his indebtedness on every farm in the United States, regardless of who is operating it. Now, that is the information that we ought to have. I think agriculture has been more depressed than we realize, and that the picture is incomplete because of the lack of information on that very question.

Mr. AUSTIN. Here is the difficulty about that: In taking the census, every schedule has a blank for name and address of the owner of the farm. Now, we do not get those schedules here in the Census Bureau until the canvass is completed, because the enumerator sends them to his supervisor and the supervisor goes over them and checks them up and any corrections are made in the field before they get to the Washington office. And when they get to us, it is a question of correspondence with various supervisors scattered throughout the United States. I do not believe we could get over 50 per cent of replies of that kind.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Well, if you could get 50 per cent I think it might be of some value.

Mr. AUSTIN. If that was done, my opinion would be that it would pay to make a special agent canvass through the county clerk's office, or wherever the mortgages are filed.

Mr. DE ROUEN. Well, the Federal land bank could certainly furnish this data on the investments made in the various districts; and the New York Life Insurance Co., the Prudential Assurance Co., and corporations of that kind I believe would not hesitate to furnish the information.

Mr. AUSTIN. I do not know whether you would cover the mortgage question even if you were to get that information.

Mr. DE ROUEN. You would not so far as the small loans made by private individuals are concerned. But you could get that through

individuals or from local sources; and then by adding that to the other you could get the total indebtedness of the farms of the United States. I think we should make an effort to get somewhere near the exact indebtedness of the farmers. And by that system I think you could come very near doing it. I believe the large corporations would be in favor of it, because, to a certain degree, they are worried themselves in making those investments.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I think the Census Bureau would be subjected to criticism at this time if they did not themselves recommend a system, and then let this committee or Congress reject it if it involves too much expense. But agriculture is now in a critical position. And I think the Census Bureau should consider a plan for gathering statistics showing land values and amount of indebtedness in the United States.

Mr. AUSTIN. We have figures as to land values.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. But you do not have as to land indebtedness? The CHAIRMAN. Would you have that incorporated in this bill? Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. AUSTIN. Yes; but if that is to be done, we should consult the county records in the various counties.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. But your office ought to present a plan and present it to us.

Mrs. KAHN. I would like to ask whether you have the last say in regard to these schedules?

Mr. AUSTIN. Yes, we have the final say-so.

Mrs. KAHN. You have not only the final say, but you have the entire handling of it?

Mr. AUSTIN. Not the entire handling, but we have the final determination; because the schedule is made up when we get it.

Doctor HILL. Theoretically, we have a free hand; but practically we do not have a free hand. The schedules have come to be largely standardized and we would not take the responsibility of making any radical changes.

Mrs. KAHN. But whether you add to or subtract items from them is really in your discretion?

Doctor HILL. Practically.

Mr. MOORMAN. While these gentlemen from the Census Bureau are here, and reverting to what the gentleman from New York said about the importance of ascertaining the status of the farmers, I just want to add this: That I live in a rural community and am a member of the credit committee of a country bank.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. MOORMAN. And I know the condition of the people of my community; and I know that it is very much worse than anybody on the outside realizes; and I believe that the suggestion made by the gentleman from New York, and acquiesced in by several other members of the committee that are interested in agriculture, is vitally important; and I am interested to know if there will be an effort made to furnish the particular data suggested.

Mr. SELVIG. Mr. Chairman, I wish to add my indorsement to what the gentleman has just said.

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