Doctor HILL. That has been carried in the census bill for the last three or four censuses anyway. Of course there is an addition in the case of the Virgin Islands, because we had just taken a special census of them 10 years ago; otherwise it is just the same as it was 10 years ago. Section 2 defines the period that we know as the decenial census period:

That the period of three years beginning the 1st day of July next preceding the census provided for in section 1 of this act shall be known as the decennial census period, and the reports upon the inquiries provided for in said section shall be completed within such period.

That is the period to which this law would apply. This law would be in force and in operation for three years beginning July 1, 1929. We have to begin sometime in advance of the date of the census in order to get ready for it, and you would have to extend it some distance beyond the date of the census in order to wind it up. It takes a good while, under the best and most favorable conditions, to tabulate and publish the results of the decennial census. As far as I am concerned, as to interruptions, I would just as soon be interrupted at any time, if anyone has a question to raise; I have no set speech to deliver.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor Hill is here to give us information, and from what he has said, I think the committee will take advantage of it.

Mr. JOHNSON. I have not had time to read the entire bill carefully, but in regard to the provisions of the first paragraph, as to a census of population, agriculture, and distribution, the details of the facts desired to be secured are carried in the bill, or not?

Doctor HILL. They are not carried in the bill. That is left, as the bill stands, to the discretion of the Secretary of Commerce and the Director of the Census.

Mr. JOHNSON. The particular items that might be desirable are left to those officials?

Doctor HILL. Yes, sir; that is the situation. Then section 3 provides:

That there may be employed in the Bureau of the Census, in addition to the force provided for by the appropriation act for the fiscal year immediately preceding the decennial census period, two assistant directors, one of whom shall act as executive assistant to the director, performing, in addition, the duties usually assigned to the chief clerk, and the other, who must be a person of known and tried experience in statistical work, as technical and statistical advisor; these officials to be appointed by the Secretary of Commerce, upon the recommendation of the Director of the Census, in conformity with the civil service laws and rules.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, are those new officers?

Doctor HILL. We have never had more than one assistant director before.

The CHAIRMAN. You say, "Performing, in addition, the duties usually assigned to the chief clerk." Would that remove the present chief clerk from his present duties?

Doctor HILL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It makes two authoritative officers?

Doctor HILL. It makes two offices in one.

The CHAIRMAN. Two assistant directors, one of whom is the executive assistant to the director; I understand. In other words, the present chief clerk will become an assistant director?

Doctor HILL. He may.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not mean the individual, but the office.

Doctor HILL. As I say, that is a new feature, because the director needs two assistants. Any man who looks after the administrative end of the census is not going to have time for anything else. Mrs. KAHN. How will his salary be provided for?

Doctor HILL. I do not believe the salary is provided for; at least, it would come under the reclassification.

The CHAIRMAN. It says, "upon the recommendation of the Director of the Census, in conformity with the civil-service laws and rules." Are there positions of that character under the civil service in the Census Bureau now?

Doctor HILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no change in that?

Doctor HILL. No, sir. I might say, on the other hand, that any man who looks after the technical and statistical side of the work, planning the tables, and the interpretation of them, and questions of that kind, will not have any time to do any executive work. That is the reason for the provision.

The CHAIRMAN. You say, "who must be a person of known and tried experience in statistical work, as technical and statistical advisor. Would you put a man of that character under civil service? Or does this bill put a man of that ability under the civil service? It says, "these officials to be appointed by the Secretary of Commerce, upon the recommendation of the Director of the Census, in conformity with the civil-service laws and rules." It seems to me that such an exceptional statistician as that would be almost able to instruct the Civil Service Commission in some things.

Mr. BROWN. I am Mr. Brown, of the Civil Service Commission. May I say that we are filling positions of $6,000 and $7,500 in these technical places in the departments all the time?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Would it be your idea, Mr. Chairman, to revise that last clause?

The CHAIRMAN. No; I just wanted to see how far the civil service would prevail. The civil service has just informed me that they do pass upon the qualifications of $6,000, $7,000, and $8,000 men, so I do not see any particular objection to this.

Mr. BROWN. The field has actually broadened in placing them under the civil service. Our system of recruiting is such that we can reach people throughout the country of such qualifications.

The CHAIRMAN. It is rather restricted in this bill, as far as I read it. It says, "these officials to be appointed by the Secretary of Commerce, upon the recommendation of the Director of the Census, in conformity with the civil-service laws and rules." Now, assuming that the Director of the Census nominates an individual for the position of assistant director. As long as that individual can pass the civll-service requirements, he is appointed, of course, isn't he? Mr. BROWN. Well, no

The CHAIRMAN. If you do not do that, you would throw it open to the whole country to apply under the civil service, and remove the authority carried in this bill, "to be appointed by the Secretary of Commerce, upon the recommendation of the Director of the Census."

Mr. BROWN. May I say that what we would do would be to announce an open competitive examination, but we would limit it strictly to persons of these qualifications. Then we would certify three men to the Director of the Census, and he would recommend one of them to the Secretary, who would appoint him. That would be the procedure.

The CHAIRMAN. But that is rather contrary to the last two sentences of this first paragraph, if you can characterize it as a paragraph, "these officials to be appointed by the Secretary of Commerce, upon the recommendation of the Director of the Census," and then you add, "in conformity with the civil-service laws and rules." Now, that would take away from the Secretary of Commerce and the Director of the Census any discretion in the matter.

Mr. BROWN. That would take away their right to nominate anybody except one of those certified as eligible.

The CHAIRMAN. That would take away their right to nominate anybody, because you would throw it open to the whole country. There seems to be a little conflict there?

Mr. BROWN. They could nominate one of the three who were certified.

Doctor HILL. We have those officials in the Bureau of the Census now, and they have been there for a great many years; those positions, both of them, have been there for 25 or 30 years. Now, this is to take care of men in the bureau who are holding these nominal positions now. And we could do that in the decennial census period. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, the representatives of the Civil Service Commission say that they would advertise throughout the country for men?

Mr. BROWN. Only in case the Director of the Census did not recommend a person who was eligible for promotion under the rules. Now, Doctor Hill would be the statistician under this paragraph, and he would be eligible for promotion to the job, so far as that is concerned, under civil-service rules.

Mr. HIRSCH. Doctor Hill is the assistant to the director at this time, and has been for some time. That is a position that we have in the bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. What I am trying to get at is that there seems to be a conflict of authority in this paragraph of the bill that I have just read, and that a difference seems to exist in the minds of the gentlemen on my left, who represent the Civil Service Commission, and the gentlemen on my right, appearing for the Census Bureau. The statement just made by the gentlemen of the Civil Service Commission, was that they would advertise and spread information about the positions about the country, and that all could apply for them who wished; and that from those applying they would present three names to the Secretary of the Department. And we know the same thing is done in the Post Office Department, although some of those positions are not under the civil service three names are submitted by the commission to the head of the department.

Mr. RANKIN. If these men are already employed in the Bureau of the Census, why give them the right to do that?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, it simply gives them the power and the authority that the director now has. You are under civil service already, are you, Doctor Hill?

Dr. HILL. Yes. I would like to ask Mr. Brown this question, Mr. Chairman: This really creates a new position. There is no such thing as assistant director, is there now, technically under the law. I act in that capacity and I sign myself as "Assistant to the Director." Suppose this is a new position to be filled; the director would be able to fill it from anyone now in his bureau, would he?

Mr. BROWN. Our announcements always say that the positions will be filled as a result of this examination, unless it is to the interest of the service to fill them by promotion, reinstatement, or transfer. Now, if the director has anybody who has a civil-service status, as in the case of Doctor Hill, he can be appointed. The position should, in our judgment, be left under civil service; but the director would have a perfect right to recommend any one in the bureau who had the civil-service status for promotion to that position.

Doctor HILL. In that case there would be no examination held? Mr. BROWN. Absolutely not.

The CHAIRMAN. But why is it necessary to put this under civilservice rules?

Mr. HIRSCH. Suppose there is a vacancy and you did not have this language in the bill, then the vacancy might be filled without any conformity to the civil service law.

The CHAIRMAN. Why should it not be?

Mr. HIRSCH. That is a question of policy. If you want it under civil-service rules, then this language serves the purpose for future requirements.

The CHAIRMAN. Not according to the statements that the gentleman from the civil service made here. He made the statement that the Civil Service Commission would announce that there was a position of that character to be filled; and that an examination would be held and that they would submit names of three persons to the Secretary of Commerce for appointment. Now, under civil-service rules, or one thing or another, Doctor Hill might not be included in that.

Mr. HIRSCH. When you say "under civil-service rules," that also includes the policy of promotion; does it not, Mr. Brown?

Mr. BROWN. Certainly.

The CHAIRMAN. Then why hold an examination?

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Chairman, I do not make myself understood. I said we would hold an examination, unless the Census Bureau had some one with a civil-service status whom they wished to promote.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, here is one thing I would like to know: The Director of the Census has the right under the present law to appoint a man as assistant to the director, or many men as assistants to the director. Then why make this change in the law at all? Why not just let him as Director of the Census go ahead and appoint the men as assistants to the director? They are doing the work now.

The CHAIRMAN. There might be a little more authority by giving him express power to appoint assistant directors.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, it would give him two more assistants by law to do the same work. I am not much in favor of increasing positions. Doctor HILL. This would not necessarily result in increasing positions. It would be merely an increase in salary.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Perhaps Mr. Brown would answer this question, What is the law at the present time under which this position is created?

The CHAIRMAN. If you will permit me to interrupt you for a moment, Mr. Rankin has just made a suggestion to me which I think is apropos in this matter, and that is that we have prepared a committee draft of this bill and have it printed, together with the existing statutes.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. That will cover what I had in mind.

Mr. RANKIN. I will make the suggestion, Mr. Chairman, that a copy of the bill with the existing laws be inserted at the beginning of these hearings, for the benefit of those who read the hearings.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, at the beginning of the record of the hearings. I think that would clear these matters up a good deal.

Mr. RANKIN. Doctor Hill, you have said that the difference between the assistant directors and the assistants to the directors is a difference in salary. How much is it?

Doctor HILL. How much is the difference in salary?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Doctor HILL. I could not say.

Mr. RANKIN. What is your present salary?

Doctor HILL. $5,600.

Mr. RANKIN. What would your salary be as assistant director? Mr. BROWN. Probably $6,000.

Mr. RANKIN. The duties would be the same?

Mr. BROWN. That is a question for the classification board; but I think it would be $6,000.

Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, the director has a right to appoint men under him to the position of assistant to the director? Doctor HILL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is as it is at present.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; that is as the law now stands.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any limit to the number of assistants to the director that the director may designate?

Doctor HILL. I do not know that there is.

The CHAIRMAN. Excepting the financial end of it?

Mr. HIRSCH. In the fundamental law establishing the Bureau of the Census, the chief clerk acts as acting director in the absence of the director, and there can be only one acting director. Now, in order to make this legal and under the law proper, the director asks for these two assistant directors to conduct his business.

The CHAIRMAN. I see; you are the acting director?

Mr. HIRSCH. I am the acting director during his absence.

Mr. RANKIN. If you and the director were both absent, who would act?

Mr. HIRSCH. There is no one who could act.

Mr. RANKIN. Could the assistant to the director take charge?

Mr. HIRSCH. He may take charge, but he could not sign papers as acting director.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you mean that the authority could not be delegated to him to sign the director's name?