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60 (c) The veteran is released from all age limitations, except for the positions of fireman and policeman of the District of Columbia, and is released from many of the physical requirements.

60 (d) The veteran is certified without regard to the apportionment among the States of appointments in the apportioned service in the District of Columbia.

Mr. MORGAN. I would also like to include in the record these figures on the veteran preference law as it stands. There is no use taking up the time of the committee by reading these figures, but I would like to have them inserted in the record. They are the figures for the fiscal year 1927, showing the practical results of the veterans' preference law and the Executive order under the law, giving effect to the law.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think this provision is necessary in this hill in regard to preference?

Mr. MORGAN. I do not think so; because they would have the preference just the same under the present legislation.

The CHAIRMAN. The statement giving the figures is as follows:

During the year ending June 30, 1927, 245,535 persons entered examinations for the classified service, of whom 48,114, or 19.59 per cent, were given preference. Of 38,777 appointments, 9,947, or 25.65 per cent, were of preference eligibles, whereas only 19.59 per cent of all the applicants were in the preferred class. The number of preference eligibles appointed is 20.67 per cent of all preference applicants, whereas the number of nonpreference appointees is only 14.6 per cent of the whole number of nonpreference applicants.

For eight representative occupations 3,484 veterans, whose earned ratings were below 70 per cent, were allowed eligibility by the addition of the 5 or 10 points, and in these occupations 505 veteran eligibles were appointed who had earned ratings below 70 per cent.

Mr. MORGAN. That is in answer to the chairman's question as to. whether, veterans are getting any real preference.

Mr. RANKIN. Whose question?
Mr. MOORMAN. I think that was the question that I asked.

Mr. THURSTON. Have you any figures to show the number of persons selected by somebody outside of the commission itself—for instance, those selected by a Congressman for rural carrier or postmaster?

The CHAIRMAN. Rural postmasters do not come under the civil service. The fourth-class postmasters do.

Mr. THURSTON. I mean those that come under the civil service? Mr. MORGAN. Fourth-class postmasters.

Mr. THURSTON. What proportion of those are selected by Members of Congress?

Mr. MORGAN. I do not believe that we have any figures on that. The situation as to rural carriers and fourth-class postmasters-well, you might call it anomalous; it is certainly unsatisfactory. Our certification of eligibles—and I am speaking of the rural carriers and fourth-class postmasters—is made to the Post Office Department, as is done in all cases for all departments, for the selection of one of these three. It is a well known fact that the Post Office Department consults a Member of Congress or another distributor of patronage in the territory affected as to the person to be selected. Frequently, and I think I may say almost usually, some one is selected in advance, with the hope that he will be rated among the high three.

The CHAIRMAN. Submitted to whom in advance?

Mr. MORGAN. To the Congressman or other distributor of patronage.

The CHAIRMAN. That certainly does not apply to the First District of Connecticut.

Mr. MORGAN. It does in many districts.

Mr. Rankin. It does apply in Mississippi; and not only that, but the offices are bought and sold before they come up here.

The CHAIRMAN. The only difficulty I find in Connecticut is to get the fourth-class post offices filled; that is, to get somebody to take the position. I think you will find the same difficulty exists elsewhere.

Mr. THURSTON. To get back to my question, what proportion of them are designated by Members of Congress?

Mr. MORGAN. The majority, I think.. Mr. MOORMAN. I wish you would get the figures. The CHAIRMAN. I think they are all submitted to him. Mr. MORGAN. In the matter of fourth-class postmasters, as the Chairman said, it is frequently a question of getting some one to take the job. In the case of rural carriers, the situation I have described obtains almost generally. Some one is selected in advance, in the hope that he will be rated among the high three. It is known in the territory of the office that that is done, and therefore the competition is limited.

Mr. THURSTON. Is it not a matter of fact that 20 or 30 persons take those examinations for rural carriers?

Mr. MORGAN. Not usually, I think.

Mr. THURSTON. I can supply you with information that they do take it.

The CHAIRMAN. I have had several experiences with regard to rural carriers, where a postmaster desired to retain & rural carrier who had been in the temporary carrier service and the postmaster wished to retain him on account of his efficiency; but the man was unable to pass the civil service examination. And in all of the cases that have come to my attention of that kind, that man has not been appointed. They follow the civil service examination. But there have been cases of that character where the postmaster wanted to retain a man who had been put on as a temporary carrier and was unable to do so on that account.

Mr. MORGAN. That is also true. But I think you will find, Mr. Chairman, that in a lorge percentage of cases some one is selected in advance, with the hope that he will be among the highest three in the civil service examinatior.

Mr. THURSTON. As a matter of fact, it does not make any difference if he does not get on the eligible list, does it?

The CHAIRMAN. No. Mr. MORGAN. It limits competition by having it noised about that some one is selected for the job. It is a fact that politics usually controls in rural-carrier appointments.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to have some definite information in regard to that statement you have just made. Mr. MORGAN. We can give it to you at any time.

The CHAIRMAN. If that procedure is followed, it certainly is not followed in the matters that I have had to do with in the last seven or eight years throughout the country. I know the general belief in

the country is that these appointments are made on account of “pull," as it is called. Now, I have never known the name of a proposed rural carrier, or a proposed fourth-class postmaster, so far as my recollection goes, until the recommendation was submitted to me, or the list, or whatever you might call it. But I have known of cases where we have had to go out and try to induce people to take these fourth-class postmasterships.

Mr. MORGAN. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. And it was difficult to get anyone to take the job. I will cite a case that occurred across the river from where I live. We solicited a clergyman to take the place, and he took it. And he was one of a denomination where they change their sphere of duty every two years. And he took it; and at the end of two years, he had to leave. And he was a very conscientious man; and he came to me and said, “I have read the regulations very thoroughly.” And I think the compensation was about $300 a year, which was an inducement to him to take it, although I do not think he considered that when he took it. And he said, "I have read the regulations very thoroughly; and I have performed all the duties of the office; and I have worked eight hours a day"; and he said, “There is not enough business in the office to keep me at work eight hours a day," and I said, “Well, you can go in there and write your sermons while you are there."

Mr. RANKIN. As I understand you, Mr. Morgan, you do not confine that statement to the fourth-class postmasters; it applies to all of them?

Mr. MORGAN. May I explain? The situation as to fourth-class postmasters is much as the chairman has described it. Fourthclass postmasterships are in many cases undesirable. Rural carrier jobs, on the other hand, are very desirable.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I understood.

Mr. MORGAN. Our difficulty is principally with the rural carriers, so far as the classified service is concerned. However, when we get into the postmasterships of the first, second, and third classes, which are presidential appointments, everything that I have said about rural carrier jobs applies. The situation with respect to presidential postmaster appointments is most unsatisfactory, from the viewpoint of the Civil Service Commission. The system of appointments to presidential postmasterships has done more to discredit the Civil Service Commission and the merit system as a principle than anything that has occurred in my 25 years with the Government.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that perhaps we have drifted away from the purposes of this bill; and I think we should confine ourselves to the bill. This is outside of the sphere of this bill entirely.

Mr. MOORMAN. Inasmuch as Civil Service has received the amount of attention that it has this morning, however, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the gentleman about a certain case.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it in connection with this bill?

Mr. MOORMAN. It is, in a way. That is, connection with the application of the civil-service rules.

The CHAIRMAN. But we are not discussing the civil-service rules; we are discussing this bill.

Mr. MOORMAN. We have discussed them considerably.

The CHAIRMAN. I shall have to insist that the witnesses and the members of the committee confine themselves to the discussion of this bill; because if we open up this matter of the civil service, we will take a great deal of time and accomplish nothing.

Mr. MORGAN. I shall be glad to answer your question at another time

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Pardon me, until I finish. We have a civil-service committee, or a committee that handles civil-service matters, and this committee does not, except as they come under consideration in connection with the appointment of these various census takers. What postmasters have to do with this bill I can not conceive.

Mr. MOORMAN. Civil service and Executive orders have had a good deal to do with it judging from the discussion which has gone on here this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. Ï have allowed the discussion to go on; but I think it ought to be stopped.

Mr. MOORMAN. Right; but I desire to take just a minute to say this: What I desire to ask about is this: There is a postmaster in my district who took the examination and received the highest percentage. Nobody else was eligible under the examination. They declined to give him the appointment. They ordered another examination. He was the high man the second time, and they refused to give him the appointment. And I wanted to ask a few questions in connection with that of these gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you can ascertain that by application to the Civil Service Commission or the Post Office Department.

Mr. MOORMAN. In order that my attitude may not be misunderstood, I will say that I am absolutely for civil service. But I am not in favor of putting in this bill, or any other bill, anything about a preference for veterans if it does not mean that the indicated preference is going to be given to the indicated persons or class. That is my attitude about the proposition. And I am supporting the Civil Service Commission in my real attitude on the subject. But I do not believe that the situation which is admitted to exist in Kentucky, where the Republican County Chairman and committees govern those things is right and I can show you the letters that admit this—I do not think that such a situation ought to prevail, either in justice to civil service or in justice to my constituency.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, we will proceed with the consideration of this bill.

Mr. RANKIN. So far as the civil service is concerned-and I say this with all due deference—so far as the civil service is concerned in connection with appointments in my territory, it is a farce.

Mr. MORGAN. I quite agree with you. If you mean with regard to postmasterships.

Mr. RANKIN. I certainly do.

Mr. MORGAN. I quite agree with you, not only as to that district, but every other district in the presidential class.

The CHAIRMAN. I must insist that our discussion be confined to the application of this bill.

Mr. RANKIN. I thought the matter rather touched upon the provisions of this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we got away from that. Now, have you anything further to say on that subject? Mr. MORGAN. No. The CHAIRMAN. Then we will hear from Dr. Hill.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOSEPH A. HILL, ASSISTANT TO THE

DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF THE CENSUS-Resumed

Dr. Hill. I believe, Mr. Chairman, in reading the bill (H. R. 393) we had reached page 3 and had just reached the paragraph about the appointment of special agents and supervisors.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we had just reached the paragraph beginning in line 11, page 3.

Dr. HILL. That provides:

That special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, enumerators, and interpreters may be appointed by the Director of the Census to carry out the provisions of this act and of the act to provide for a permanent Census Office, approved March 6, 1902, and acts amendatory thereof or supplemental thereto, such appointments to be made without reference to the civil service or the classification acts.

I explained that that was substantially the same provision that we had before. Then it goes on:

The Director of the Census may delegate to the supervisors authority to appoint enumerators. The enlisted men and officers of the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps may be appointed and compensated for the enumeration of Army, Navy, Marine and other military posts. The special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, enumerators, and interpreters thus appointed shall receive compensation at per diem or piece-price rates to be fixed by the Director of the Census: Provided, That special agents appointed at a per diem rate shall not be paid in excess of $8 per diem except as hereinafter provided; and that the compensation on a piece-price basis may be fixed without limitation as to the amount earned per diem: Provided further, That during the decennial census period the Director of the Census may fix the compensation of not to exceed twenty-five special agents at an amount not to exceed $12 per diem:

Those two provisions are also substantially the same.
Mr. HIRSCH. The amount of compensation has been changed?
Doctor Hill. Yes; the maximum was $8 before.
The CHAIRMAN. And it is $12 now?

Doctor Hill. That provides now for twenty-five special agents at not exceeding $12. Then it provides:

Provided further, That permanent employees of the Census Office and special agents may be detailed, when necessary, to act as supervisors or enumerators, such permanent employees and special agents to have like authority with and perform the same duties as the supervisors or enumerators in respect to the subjects committed to them under this act.

The CHAIRMAN. We will pause there and discuss this provision. The members of the committee may desire to ask questions about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Right there is one of the stumbling blocks in the last census; that is, in regard to the compensation for the enumerators. Now, that is the trouble that you had in the census of 1920.

The CHAIRMAN. They did not pay them enough?

Mr. RANKIN. They did not pay them enough; that is correct, is it not? Mr. HIRSCH. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what we are after is to get a correct census of the United States and to count everybody. Under this provision-I

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