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Mr. GOSNELL. The supervisors' clerks are appointed by the Director of the Census, whereas they were formerly appointed by the supervisors.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Are you advocating the appointment of these men without reference to the Civil Service Commission for efficiency in collection of material?

Mrs. Kahn. These are just the enumerators.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I understand that. It is just the field workers. Do you want that provision?

Doctor HILL. We put it in the law.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. But are you interested in it for the purpose of getting efficiency? What I want to make sure is that there will be no questions or doubts passed upon the census of 1930, so that there will be no more alibis or contentions as to reapportionment. I do not want anybody to come back and say that we did not have the right material, or that Congress did not have the right material.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be your position, Mr. Jacobstein?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I just want to put the experts on record that we are giving them everything they want just as they want it, so that there will be no alibi against reapportionment after the census of 1930.

Mr. HIRSCH. These men are employed for very temporary periods, and it will be impossible to appoint them under civil-service rules.

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Chairman, I have asked that we be heard on this proposition before the hearings close either now or later.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly. Mr. RANKIN. Just where you are reading now, I am going to propose this amendment, and I want to ask your opinion on it: In line 18, page 3, insert after the word "acts,” the following:

That so far as practicable and desirable, the boundaries of the supervisors' districts shall conform to the boundaries of the congressional districts.

Doctor Hill. Do you want to put that in?
Mr. RANKIN. I am proposing to offer that as an amendment.
Doctor HILL. Do you want me to discuss that now?
Mr. RANKIN. I want to get your views on it.

The CHAIRMAN. That those districts conform to the congressional
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. That would localize it.
Doctor Hill. Heretofore, that has been the general practice.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Doctor Hill. But taking the census is a great and difficult administrative task. And we feel that we would get districts that are much better adapted for the purpose of taking the census if we had a free hand in the matter than we would have if we had to follow the congressional districts, which were established some 20 years ago.

Now, the congressional district is laid out without any regard to its application to taking the census. That factor is not given the least consideration in forming congressional districts; and neither in its size nor in its shape is it the district best adapted to a census enumeration, and there is probably at this present time a much greater disparity in population of the congressional districts, owing to the fact that you have not made the reapportionment, than there ever has been before. And I think any one of you would say if you

were asked to take the position of Director of the Census and assume the administrative responsibility of that office, that you ought to have a free hand in defining the districts which should be operated under your supervision.

Mr. RANKIN. Doctor Hill, you evidently did not pay close attention to the reading of the amendment I proposed.

Doctor Hill. I beg your pardon.

Mr. RANKIN. I said, “That so far as practicable and desirable, the boundaries of the supervisors' districts shall conform to the boundaries of the congressional district.”

Doctor Hill. Yes, I know that there are those qualifying words there. But at the same time it does rather place the obligation on the Bureau of the Census to follow those districts; and we did follow them pretty closely last time, under that same clause that you propose. And I do not think that the director would feel privileged to depart from the congressional district, unless there were very strong reasons for doing so. But at the same time, if he had a free hand in laying out those districts, I am satisfied that we would get much better districts for administrative purposes than if the director did not have a free hand in laying them out. · The CHAIRMAN. You mean in laying out the supervisors' districts?

Doctor HILL. Yes, the supervisors' districts.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. The very fact that you mention the congressional districts as the area or unit for supervisors' districts, would that not be likely to give it a political connotation? Would that not be likely to make it appear that the Congressman has something to say as to that?

The CHAIRMAN. The Lord forbid!

Mr. RANKIN. Does the gentleman doubt that the Congressman would do that?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Up in our State we do not always have such authority.

The CHAIRMAN. Before we adjourn, I want to read this letter for the committee's consideration, that I received from Mr. Doyle, the Secretary of the Civil Service Commission, in relation to this very section that we have been discussing. The letter is dated December 29, 1927, and in it Mr. Doyle says:

It is noted that H. R. 393, a bill to provide for the fifteenth and subsequent decennial censuses, contains the following exemptions from the provisions of the civil service act on page 3, lines 11 to 19, inclusive:

That special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, enumerators, and interpreters may be appointed by the Director of the Census to carry out the provisions of this act and of the act to provide for a permanent census office, approved March 6, 1902, and acts amendatory thereof or supplemental thereto, such appointments to be made without reference to the civil service or the classification acts. The Director of the Census may delegate to the supervisors authority to appoint enumerators.”

This is the letter that writes about that paragraph: We venture to suggest for the consideration of the Committee on the Census the elimination of these exceptions above the grade of enumerator. It is believed that the work done by the very classes proposed for exemption, being the basis of the entire statistical matter, requires the best qualified employees who can be obtained; and we also believe that no other agency than this commission has equal facilities for obtaining the best men available. There are thirteen civil service districts with a secretary in charge of each, and more than 4,000 local boards throughout the United States, in a position to advertise and inform the public concerning examinations. This commission is also in touch with organizations and societies whose members are especially interested in diverse forms of activities and training.

This office has had long experience in rating relative fitness of men on the basis of education, training, experience, attainments, reputation, physical condition or any combination deemed essential by those in charge of the many lines of increasingly diversified Government work. For these reasons it seems to this office that the interests of the service would be advanced if your committee should see fit to strike out from the bill the exception of special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, and interpreters, leaving any necessary exceptions to existing provisions of the rules or to executive action.

I submit that for the consideration of the committee. Mrs. Kahn. I would like to ask a question of the representatives present of the Civil Service Commission: Is your organization desirous of putting all of the enumerators also under the civil service? Mr. Brown. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Enumerators are exempt. Mr. BROWN. I do not think we would want to do that. Those are very temporary positions.

Mrs. Kahn. That is what I thought.

Mr. BROWN. It would not be good administration for us not to exempt those from examination.

We do feel, however, that so far as the supervisors are concerned, and the clerks in supervisors' offices and the special agents in particular, that we can get them better than the Census Bureau can get them, and get better men and can have them waiting when the bureau wants them. Now, we do most thoroughly believe that.

Mr. RANKIN. You can get what better than the Census Bureau?

Mr. BROWN. We have better means of combing the country for qualified men than any organization in the United States.

Mrs. Kain. That is as to supervisors, supervisors' clerks, and special agents?

The CHAIRMAN. You want to strike out of the bill what words? Mr. BROWN. We would strike out of the bill the words, “Without reference to the civil service or the classification acts” in lines 17 and 18 and make it read:

Such appointments of special agents, supervisors, and supervisors' clerksand possibly interpreters, although I am not strong on interpreters— shall be made in conformity with the civil service laws and rules.

The CHAIRMAN. You would have the special agents and supervisors and supervisors' clerks come under the civil service? Mr. BROWN. In conformity with the civil service rules. The CHAIRMAN. How many are there of those? Doctor HILL. Of interpreters?

The CHAIRMAN. Not interpreters; but it says, "all special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, and interpreters.” How many, in the aggregate, would there be of those in the next census?

on thousand. Mr. HIRSCH. Ten thousand.

The CHAIRMAN. When would you get a report from the civil service about those? And then, after you had got your 10,000 qualified persons for those positions, how long would it take the Census Bureau to reduce those to the number that they wanted? I am just inquiring as to how that would affect the matter of expedition.

Mr. Brown. If that were to be included in the bill, we would have such ample time to prepare our lists that we would have them ready when the Census Bureau wanted them.

Mrs. KAHN. I do not mean to criticize; but I want to ask how long this work would last for these special agents, etc.? About how long would the employment of the average person be? I ask that because they do not come under this census period. As I understand it, they are not included in this three-year period.

Mr. BROWN. It would be about six months, would it not?

Mr. HIRSCH. Some of those clerks would be employed from 3 to 5 days; some would be employed a week or 10 days; and some 3 weeks or a month.

Mrs. Kain. What are you going to do with those 10,000 employees afterwards? Would the Government be compelled to absorb them, or would you simply let them go?

Mr. BROWN. No; we would simply make up lists of those persons and notify them; and they would clearly understand that they would be let out when the Census Bureau was through with them.

Mrs. Kahn. Are you sure they would understand that?

Mr. BROWN. I think so. But so far as special agents are concerned they carry them through 10-year periods.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I am going to make a motion to adjourn. Doctor Hill is on the stand and the other gentlemen can be heard after we finish with him. So that when we meet again, may it be understood that Doctor Hill is to be allowed to finish his statement? · The CHAIRMAN. Yes; and these other gentlemen can be heard later.

Before we adjourn, I would like to refer again to the question of having the act covering the Fourteenth Census printed alongside this bill which is now before us, for the Fifteenth Census. I do not know in what exact shape we would have those two printed together, for purposes of comparison. I am informed by the Census Bureau that they have no funds for printing that. But I think that as a committee we could have that done. Mr. RANKIN. Yes, I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. In that case, I will take it up with the Printing Committee or the Public Printer. Mr. RANKIN. We can leave it with the chairman.

(Thereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, the committee adjourned until Thursday, January 12, 1928, at 12.30 o'clock p. m.)


Thursday, January 12, 1928. The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. E. Hart Fenn (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor Hill, will you proceed? Mr. THURSTON. Before Doctor Hill proceeds, Mr. Chairman, let me ask why they did not include the Philippine Islands in the bill providing for a census, so that we could know about the population, agriculture, various tribes, illiteracy, and a number of other matters relating to the Philippines?

• The CHAIRMAN. Because there is a separate census provided for the Philippine Islands. Mr. THURSTON. Do you mean we will have a separate bill?

The CHAIRMAN. No; I do not think there is any bill this session. I think that is under a general statute.

Doctor HILL. I do not know whether it is under a general law or a special law. It was taken by the Philippine Government in 1919.

The CHAIRMAN. There is some process by which they take a census there, because I made inquiries about that yesterday.

Mr. THURSTON. There should be an accurate census of the Philippine Islands and data that we can rely upon.

The CHAIRMAN. I think the War Department does take a census. I think they are the only ones who could take it probably.

I understand that the gentlman from the Civil Service Commission, Mr. Morgan, desires to make a statement before Doctor Hill resumes.

Mr. MORGAN. This is in regard to the preference provision on page 3 of the bill H. R. 393. I find that the preference law is found in the deficiency act approved July 11, 1919, and it covers all the provisions of this bill as to preference, and there does not seem to be any special reason for saying anything about preference in this bill, although I see no objection to doing so. I will give the clerk a copy of the law and a copy of the Executive order under the law.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not want the entire pamphlet which you have there printed?

Mr. MORGAN. No; just the act of July 11, 1919, and the Executive order.

The CHAIRMAN. Those will be inserted in the record of this hearing. (The material referred to is as follows:)

1. Statutory provision, and benefits.—The deficiency act approved July 11, 1919, provides as follows:

“That hereafter in making appointments to clerical and other positions in the executive branch of the Government in the District of Columbia or elsewhere, preference shall be given to honorably discharged soldiers, sailors, and marines, and widows of such, and to the wives of injured soldiers, sailors, and marines who themselves are not qualified but whose wives are qualified to hold such positions."

The President, on March 3, 1923, issued an Executive order under which the benefits granted to veterans by this act shall be as follows:

68 (a) For eligibility, a rating of 70 per cent is required of all applicants. Veterans are given five points and disabled veterans ten points in addition to their earned ratings in examinations. In examinations where experience is an element of qualification, time spent in the military or naval service of the United States during the World War or the war with Spain shall be credited in an applicant's ratings where the applicant's actual employment in a similar vocation to that for which he applies was temporarily interrupted by such military or naval service but was resumed after his discharge. This will mean that the veteran's papers will be rated, giving due regard to the military service, and that he will then have five points (or if a disabled veteran) ten points added to his earned ratings and his name will be placed on the register with other eligibles in the order of his augmented rating. A nonveteran must earn a rating of 70, while a veteran who is not disabled must earn a rating of 65 to have his name entered on the register. A disabled veteran need earn a rating of only 60 per cent to have his name entered on the register.

66 (b) An appointing officer who passes over the name of a veteran and selects a nonveteran with the same or a lower rating from a certificate of eligibles must place his reasons for so doing in the department's records.

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