obligation of the Director of the Census in making an appointment when three men were certified to him, all having an equal standing or rating of 80 per cent, and one of them was an ex-service man and two were not?

Mr. BROWN. We would simply fall back on the Executive order. Mr. MORGAN. Yes. This provision does not change the present procedure. This is the wording of the present law, under which the present Executive order has been issued.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. This law having been passed subsequently to that order?

Mr. MORGAN. Not subsequently; no.

Mr. RANKIN. This act would be subsequent?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Yes, this would be subsequent.

Mr. MORGAN. That is correct.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. That being so, would the Director of the Census be compelled to employ the ex-service man with three men of equal rating?

Mr. MORGAN. If it is a fact that the present preference law is a part of the act providing for the Census of 1920, then the preference provision should be included in this bill. I will look the matter up and inform the committee later.

Mrs. KAHN. By putting this provision in, then, we are really safeguarding the ex-service man?

Mr. MORGAN. You are giving him the same protection he has now. The CHAIRMAN. Which he did not have in the last census act? Mr. MOORMAN. You are not giving him any real advantage by putting it in there, are you?

Mr. MORGAN. Do you mean in this act?

Mr. MOORMAN. Yes.

Mr. MORGAN. Yes. If it originated in the act that this bill takes the place of. I think that is a very good reason for putting it in this act.

Mr. MOORMAN. But even though this was incorporated in the act, the ex-service man would not necessarily be appointed?

Mr. MORGAN. Not necessarily; no.

Mr. MOORMAN. Then the truth is that it does not mean anything? Mr. MORGAN. I would not say that. There are very substantial advantages given to the service men under the present law and the Executive order. He gets 5 per cent added to his earned rating, or 10 per cent if he is disabled. The State apportionment is waived in the case of veterans. Age limits are waived. Physical requirements may be waived in the discretion of the Civil Service Commission. He may not be dropped or reduced in rank-he gets a preference, I should say, in a reduction of force, or reduction of rank.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, the others go out before he does, if necessary?

Mr. MORGAN. Yes; if his record is good. And if a preference eligible appears on a certification of three names, and if a nonpreference eligible of the same rating or a lower rating is appointed and not the preference eligible, the department making the appointment must state the reasons for it in the record.

Those, in general terms, are the preferences that are given him under the law.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you are dealing here with about the only accurate bureau connected with this Government. You are hunting men of technical ability. And when you come to appoint a man to one of those positions, the Director says, "I am going to recommend this man here; although he is not an ex-service man I know he is thoroughly equipped for this work." The Congressman representing the district that the ex-service man comes from will put his finger on that and say, "You can not do that under the law."

Mr. HIRSCH. This is under civil service, however.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand that. But this law, as Mr. Jacobstein has pointed out, would be passed subsequently to the enactment of the civil service rules. Now, it seems to me that if you are going to put this in there you ought to limit this preference to the same preference that is allowed under the civil service rules. If you do not, it seems to me that you are going to find yourself in the very predicament that I am pointing out.

Mr. MORGAN. This the exact wording of the law that was enacted for the preceding census, is it not?

Mr. HIRSCH. That is it right up to date.

Mr. MORGAN. I mean, as to preference, is that not the same?
The CHAIRMAN. That is in section 3.

Mr. HIRSCH. In the 1920 act it says:

That hereafter in making appointments to clerical and other positions in the executive branch of the Government in the District of Columbia or elsewhere, preference shall be given to honorably discharged soldiers, sailors, and marines, and widows of such, and to the wives of injured soldiers, sailors, and marines, who themselves are not qualified, but whose wives are qualified to hold such positions.

I will state that in 1902, when they were about to discharge me, I received that preference, myself, and a similar law was in effect at that time.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, since that time, the Government has seen fit to clarify that provision by stating in the rules and regulations of the Civil Service Commission just what that preference means?

Mr. HIRSCH. Yes. And I will state that the only reason we put this provision in was to bring the law up to date.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand.

The CHAIRMAN. This clause provides that "Preference shall be given to honorably discharged soldiers, sailors, and marines, and the widows of such, and to the wives of injured soldiers, sailors, and marines," etc.; and it also provides that such appointments shall be made in conformity with the civil service laws and rules.

Now, Doctor Hill, will you proceed with the rest of the bill?
Doctor HILL. The next paragraph provides:

That special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, enumerators, and interpreters may be appointed by the Director of the Census to carry out the provisions of this act and of the act to provide for a permanent Census Office, approved March 6, 1902, and acts amendatory thereof or supplemental thereto, such appointments to be made without reference to the civil service or the classification

acts.

That is substantially the same, I believe, as it was before, except that the supervisors were appointed by the Secretary of the Department on the recommendation of the Director of the Census. It was virtually an appointment by the director just the same. Otherwise this is just the same, is it not, Mr. Gosnell?

Mr. GOSNELL. The supervisors' clerks are appointed by the Director of the Census, whereas they were formerly appointed by the supervisors.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Are you advocating the appointment of these men without reference to the Civil Service Commission for efficiency in collection of material?

Mrs. KAHN. These are just the enumerators.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I understand that. It is just the field workers. Do you want that provision?

Doctor HILL. We put it in the law.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. But are you interested in it for the purpose of getting efficiency? What I want to make sure is that there will be no questions or doubts passed upon the census of 1930, so that there will be no more alibis or contentions as to reapportionment. I do not want anybody to come back and say that we did not have the right material, or that Congress did not have the right material.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be your position, Mr. Jacobstein? Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I just want to put the experts on record that we are giving them everything they want just as they want it, so that there will be no alibi against reapportionment after the census of 1930.

Mr. HIRSCH. These men are employed for very temporary periods, and it will be impossible to appoint them under civil-service rules. Mr. BROWN. Mr. Chairman, I have asked that we be heard on this proposition before the hearings close-either now or later. The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. RANKIN. Just where you are reading now, I am going to propose this amendment, and I want to ask your opinion on it: În line 18, page 3, insert after the word "acts," the following:

That so far as practicable and desirable, the boundaries of the supervisors' districts shall conform to the boundaries of the congressional districts.

Doctor HILL. Do you want to put that in?

Mr. RANKIN. I am proposing to offer that as an amendment.
Doctor HILL. Do you want me to discuss that now?

Mr. RANKIN. I want to get your views on it.

The CHAIRMAN. That those districts conform to the congressional districts?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That would localize it.

Doctor HILL. Heretofore, that has been the general practice.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Doctor HILL. But taking the census is a great and difficult administrative task. And we feel that we would get districts that are much better adapted for the purpose of taking the census if we had a free hand in the matter than we would have if we had to follow the congressional districts, which were established some 20 years ago.

Now, the congressional district is laid out without any regard to its application to taking the census. That factor is not given the least consideration in forming congressional districts; and neither in its size nor in its shape is it the district best adapted to a census enumeration; and there is probably at this present time a much greater disparity in population of the congressional districts, owing to the fact that you have not made the reapportionment, than there ever has been before. And I think any one of you would say if you

were asked to take the position of Director of the Census and assume the administrative responsibility of that office, that you ought to have a free hand in defining the districts which should be operated under your supervision.

Mr. RANKIN. Doctor Hill, you evidently did not pay close attention to the reading of the amendment I proposed.

Doctor HILL. I beg your pardon.

Mr. RANKIN. I said, "That so far as practicable and desirable, the boundaries of the supervisors' districts shall conform to the boundaries of the congressional district."

Doctor HILL. Yes, I know that there are those qualifying words there. But at the same time it does rather place the obligation on the Bureau of the Census to follow those districts; and we did follow them pretty closely last time, under that same clause that you propose. And I do not think that the director would feel privileged to depart from the congressional district, unless there were very strong reasons for doing so. But at the same time, if he had a free hand in laying out those districts, I am satisfied that we would get much better districts for administrative purposes than if the director did not have a free hand in laying them out.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean in laying out the supervisors' districts? Doctor HILL. Yes, the supervisors' districts.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. The very fact that you mention the congressional districts as the area or unit for supervisors' districts, would that not be likely to give it a political connotation? Would that not be likely to make it appear that the Congressman has something to say as to that?

The CHAIRMAN. The Lord forbid!

Mr. RANKIN. Does the gentleman doubt that the Congressman would do that?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Up in our State we do not always have such authority.

The CHAIRMAN. Before we adjourn, I want to read this letter for the committee's consideration, that I received from Mr. Doyle, the Secretary of the Civil Service Commission, in relation to this very section that we have been discussing. The letter is dated December 29, 1927, and in it Mr. Doyle says:

It is noted that H. R. 393, a bill to provide for the fifteenth and subsequent decennial censuses, contains the following exemptions from the provisions of the civil service act on page 3, lines 11 to 19, inclusive:

"That special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, enumerators, and interpreters may be appointed by the Director of the Census to carry out the provisions of this act and of the act to provide for a permanent census office, approved March 6, 1902, and acts amendatory thereof or supplemental thereto, such appointments to be made without reference to the civil service or the classification acts. The Director of the Census may delegate to the supervisors authority to appoint enumerators.

This is the letter that writes about that paragraph:

We venture to suggest for the consideration of the Committee on the Census the elimination of these exceptions above the grade of enumerator. It is believed that the work done by the very classes proposed for exemption, being the basis of the entire statistical matter, requires the best qualified employees who can be obtained; and we also believe that no other agency than this commission has equal facilities for obtaining the best men available. There are thirteen civil service districts with a secretary in charge of each, and more than 4,000 local boards throughout the United States, in a position to advertise and inform the

public concerning examinations. This commission is also in touch with organizations and societies whose members are especially interested in diverse forms of activities and training.

This office has had long experience in rating relative fitness of men on the basis of education, training, experience, attainments, reputation, physical condition or any combination deemed essential by those in charge of the many lines of increasingly diversified Government work. For these reasons it seems to this office that the interests of the service would be advanced if your committee should see fit to strike out from the bill the exception of special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, and interpreters, leaving any necessary exceptions to existing provisions of the rules or to executive action.

I submit that for the consideration of the committee.

Mrs. KAHN. I would like to ask a question of the representatives present of the Civil Service Commission: Is your organization desirous of putting all of the enumerators also under the civil service? Mr. BROWN. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Enumerators are exempt.

Mr. BROWN. I do not think we would want to do that. very temporary positions.

Mrs. KAHN. That is what I thought.

Those are

Mr. BROWN. It would not be good administration for us not to exempt those from examination.

We do feel, however, that so far as the supervisors are concerned, and the clerks in supervisors' offices and the special agents in particular, that we can get them better than the Census Bureau can get them, and get better men and can have them waiting when the bureau wants them. Now, we do most thoroughly believe that.

Mr. RANKIN. You can get what better than the Census Bureau? Mr. BROWN. We have better means of combing the country for qualified men than any organization in the United States.

Mrs. KAHN. That is as to supervisors, supervisors' clerks, and special agents?

The CHAIRMAN. You want to strike out of the bill what words? Mr. BROWN. We would strike out of the bill the words, "Without reference to the civil service or the classification acts" in lines 17 and 18 and make it read:

Such appointments of special agents, supervisors, and supervisors' clerksand possibly interpreters, although I am not strong on interpretersshall be made in conformity with the civil service laws and rules.

The CHAIRMAN. You would have the special agents and supervisors and supervisors' clerks come under the civil service? Mr. BROWN. In conformity with the civil service rules. The CHAIRMAN. How many are there of those?

Doctor HILL. Of interpreters?

The CHAIRMAN. Not interpreters; but it says, "all special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, and interpreters." How many, in the aggregate, would there be of those in the next census?

Mr. HIRSCH. Ten thousand.

The CHAIRMAN. When would you get a report from the civil service about those? And then, after you had got your 10,000 qualified persons for those positions, how long would it take the Census Bureau to reduce those to the number that they wanted? I am just inquiring as to how that would affect the matter of expedition.