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infants, because here is a statement showing the age of that person. Suppose it shows the person is two years of age.

Mr. RANKIN. The thing we are driving at is to get this information.

Mr. LOZIER. I do not believe it would be good policy or you would get good results by handing out to people any such card as was suggested, or going any further than propounding the inquiry as to whether or not they can read and write. I think it would be regarded with hostility by the people from whom you want to get this particular information. It would not make any difference to Mr. Rankin or Mr. Fenn or Mrs. Kahn, or anybody of that kind, but you want to get the information from a class of people who would resent and be humiliated and embarrassed by it, and they would think you were subjecting them to an unfair examination, and I do not believe you would get good results.

Mrs. Kaun. Certainly 10 per cent would be an enormous percentage who would misinform the enumerators in regard to whether they could read or write.

Doctor Hill. I think it would. Mrs. Kahn. It would be a big margin. Doctor Hill. I think it would. The CHAIRMAN. What was that? Mrs. Kain. That 10 per cent would be a big margin of the people who would misinform the enumerator as to whether they could read or write.

Doctor HILL. That would be very large, I should think.
Mrs. Kahn. Do you not think so, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Kahn, if Doctor Hill or you were taking the census, I would think so, but these field men do not know much more than the people they are questioning.

Mrs. Kain. That is the trouble. Sometimes they do not know as much.

Mr. RANKIN. They are invariably abrupt, and they are not diplomatic in their conversation or their attitude. I think they fail to get information on this proposition.

Mr. THURSTON. I am very much interested in this subject. I believe the State of Iowa stands first in literacy. I believe the figures are 99.1 per cent, and I would like to see the other 0.9 removed. But it seems to me Mr Lozier has expressed the situation, that no accurate test can be made, and it must be left to the individual to make replies that would indicate whether he is literate or not. I believe the enumerators would incur a great amount of hostility if they were to attempt, either directly or indirectly, to hold a test while they are taking the enumeration. It seems to me in most instances the answers would be truthful and reliable.

Mr. RANKIN. Of course, they would become indignant if you would pry into their business affairs.

Mr. THURSTON. Then there is the question of the capacity of these enumerators to get this information. If we could select enumerators who are well educated and who possessed the requisites that committee feels enumerators should have, probably we could get all this information, but I apprehend the Census Buraeu will have great difficulty in obtaining enumerators who can satisfactorily discharge their duties.

Mr. RANKIN. I agree with Mrs. Kahn that if they had that one suggestion on a card, “Write your name,” and if he writes his name on that card you know he can read as well as write.

Mrs. Kain. I think you would have a very hard time to get it any other way. It seems to me Mr. Lozier has quite covered the situation.

Mr. GREENWOOD. There are other facts upon which you could rely to determine the veracity of the person being enumerated. Why should you select a different method with reference to this particular matter?

Doctor Hill. I think the person interrogated could answer those two questions just as readily as any other questions in the schedule.

Mrs. Kahn. Was not Doctor Plehn, of the University of California, at the head of enumeration at one time?

Doctor HILL. Yes.

Mrs. Kahn. That year he employed nothing but college graduates, and I understand they were dismal failures.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. It only bears out what Will Rogers said, that . if people did less reading there would be more education.

Mr. MOORMAN. Doctor, I would like to ask you if the schedules are always filled out? Are they well filled out by the enumerators.

Doctor Hill. Most of them, but we do get some schedules in the big cities where they do not much more than get the name and a few other items. Mr. MOORMAN. What check is there on the enumerators? The CHAIRMAN. What does the supervisor do? Doctor Hill. He tries to make him go back and get the missing information if he can, but he does not always succeed.

Mr. TRUESDELL. In those cases they try to have some one from the supervisor's office go and get the information. Sometimes it is necessary to reenumerate the district.

Mr. THURSTON. Would they not withhold compensation from that enumerator, if he failed?

Mr. TRUESDELL. That is the intention.

Mr. MOORMAN. That is one thing I am interested in, putting a check on them that will make them fill it out completely.

Doctor HILL. That trouble arises in the case of lodging houses and places of that kind, where the population changes over night.

The CHAIRMAN. Mainly in the large cities? Doctor Hill. Yes, sir. Mr. MOORMAN. In other words, if you were employed and paid enough money for your services, you would do that right. I am in favor of paying them more, but requiring more service.

Mrs. Kahn. If everybody would stay home one day, and the enumerators make their rounds on that day, all these questions could be covered.

Mr. LOZIER. What would the commercial people, the industrial people, the money-mad people in America, consider their economic loss to be if they would lose one day?

Mrs. Kaun. Let us have it on Sunday.

Mr. RANKIN. I think you would find that there are mighty few people who would stay at home on Sunday.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. What was the cost of the 1920 census?
Mr. GOSNELL. $26,000,000.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Are you taking that as a basis for your estimated cost? Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. You are basing your prospective cost on the 1920 census?

Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir; with increases. We have increased the rate of compensation to enumerators about 20 per cent, and it is based on an increased population.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any information here in regard to the compensation these people will receive? It is not provided in the bill.

Mr. GOSNELL. There are different grades. It is left to the Director of the Census. In the last census we employed several thousand on a per diem basis, from $5 to $6 per day.

The CHAIRMAN. What will be the pay of these enumerators and supervisors, and the rest of them? I think the committee would be interested in knowing that.

Mr. GOSNELL. We propose to pay the supervisors approximately $2,000 for the job.

The CHAIRMAN. For how long a time?

Mr. GOSNELL. About six or eight months. The assistant to the supervisors will be paid from $150 to $200 per month.

The CHAIRMAN. For the same length of time?
Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. MOORMAN. Do they get any expenses?

Mr. GOSNELL. They get their traveling expenses, where they have to do any traveling.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us get the schedule first. I think we ought to have what the compensation of these different groups is to be. · Mr. GOSNELL. The clerks and stenographers will be paid from $75 to $125 a month.

The CHAIRMAN. For how long a time? Mr. GOSNELL. They will run from three or four days to six or eight months.

The CHAIRMAN. At that rate? Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir. The interpreters will be paid approximately $5 a day. The enumerators will be paid on a piece-price basis, which we hope will average $6 a day.

Mrs. KAHN. Will you set a maximum?
Mr. GOSNELL. No, ma'am.

Mrs. Kahn. What difference do you make in the agricultural districts? They can go into a hotel in a big city and get hundreds of names in a day, and in the agricultural district they would have to travel many miles to get the same number of names.

Mr. GOSNELL. That is very true. In the large cities the rate of compensation will probably be from 3 to 5 cents a name, and in the agricultural section they run as high as 25 to 50 cents a name. Mrs. Kahn. That is what I wanted to know.

The CHAIRMAN. I think he will go fully into it if the committee will give him an opportunity.

Mr. GOSNELL. I believe that covers it, except some who will be sent out from the bureau to act as supervisors or disbursing officers.

Mrs. Kain. They will be regular employees of the bureau?
Mr. GoSNELL. That is correct.
The CHAIRMAN. Would administrative duties include that? .

Mr. GOSNELL. No, sir. We have an item of $100,000 for that. The CHAIRMAN. Regional disbursing officers? Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir; and supervisors. We propose to use them for the reason that if 125,000 vouchers come into Washington in 30 or 40 days it would mean that many of them would not be paid for some weeks.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the administrative program? That is permanent? Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Salaries and expenses of regional disbursing officers. Is that a continuing item? Mr. GOSNELL. No, sir; just for that item.

The CHAIRMAN. Population office?
Mr. GOSNELL. That is continuing, at a small cost.
The CHAIRMAN. $5,500,000.
Mr. GOSNELL. That is for the whole census period.
The CHAIRMAN. Agricultural offices, $3,000,000.
Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. THURSTON. What number of persons would constitute a unit over wbich a supervisor would have supervision?

Mr. GOSNELL. About 275,000 population, usually.
Mrs. KAHN. About a congressional district?
Mr. GOSNELL. That is what it has been in the past.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not think it advisable to divide the country into congressional districts for the census, but to divide it as you may see fit, where the census can be best taken? You will not confine yourself to congressional districts?

Mr. GOSNELL. Not necessarily.

Mr. LOZIER. What is the argument against taking the congressional district as a unit?

Mr. GOSNELL. In some cases, particularly in Missouri, there are one or two counties that are quite a distance from the center of that congressional district, and it seems to me those two counties could be added to an adjoining supervisor's district better than in any other way.

Mr. LOZIER. But the supervisor may be closer to those two counties than he would to others.

Mr. GOSNELL. That may be.

Mr. LOZIER. I have not gone into this matter, but I fail to see any logical reason why you should not make the congressional district the unit.

Mr. THURSTON. Let me ask, in connection with Mr. Lozier's question, will the residence of the supervisor be the place in that territory where the work will be done, or will he establish a central office in the district? Mr. GOSNELL. He will establish a cental office.

Mr. RANKIN. I have announced that I have an amendment I shall offer when we go into executive session.

Mr. LOZIER. I believe, if we do not adopt the congressional district as the unit, we will get into trouble and breed a whole lot of scabs, and create a whole lot of dissatisfaction. As a rule, throughout the United States the congressional districts are contiguous. You spoke about the supervisor establishing an office in a central part of his district. If you require him to do that, you must necessarily increase his compensation or you will render his appointment less desir at


In practice these supervisors carry on their work from their homes, and if you say to a supervisor that he has to go into another county, 40 or 50 or 60 miles from home, and open an office, stay away from his family and neglect his office work and his business and devote every minute to this work, you are going to reduce his compensation or you are going to render the appointment less desirable, and you will get less efficient supervision,

The CHAIRMAN. Let me make a little statement here. Take the State of Rhode Island, for instance, which I know very well, being from a neighboring State. Perhaps this pertains to the State of Maryland. But you take Rhode Island, and the city of Providence has such a large population in proportion to the rest of the State that the congressional district in Rhode Island runs into the city and carries counties with it. I think in Maryland several of these counties that adjoin the city of Baltimore have the same condition. There might be a difficulty there.

Mr. LOZIER. That is true in Rhode Island, but when we speak of the State we know it is just a little borough.

The CHAIRMAN. It has a large population.
Mr. LOZIER. As compared with other States, I mean.
Mrs. Kahn. I think that condition exists in Massachusetts.

The CHAIRMAN. It is true in a good many places. I do not state that as a reflection upon any State, but it suggests a difficulty.

Mr. LOZIER. There may be individual instances where that would be undesirable, but I think they would be more than counterbalanced by the argument in favor of using the district as a unit.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. If you do not use the district as a unit, would your figures be of such a character that we would know what the population is of the congressional district? Mr. GOSNELL. Oh, yes. That would be shown, Mr. Jacobstein.

To further answer your question, Mr. Lozier, in the last decennial census of population we had authority to make the supervisor's district conform to the congressional district, so far as practicable, and in practically every case they did conform to the congressional district.

The CHAIRMAN. The second district of Maryland includes the counties of Baltimore, Carroll, and Harford, the fifteenth, sixteenth, twenty-sixth, twenty-seventh and twenty-eighth wards, and the first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth precincts of the twentyfifth ward of Baltimore City. They even divide the wards in order to make a congressional district. Mr. GREENWOod. That is true in many other places.

The CHAIRMAN. The third district is all in the city of Baltimore, but they also divide the wards in that district.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I have such a district, and my colleague has such a district.

Mr. LOZIER. In all these cases the urban population predominates so thoroughly there would be no real objection.

The CHAIRMAN. There must be some reason for the Census Bureau taking the position they take. If we succeed in getting a reapportionment bill through, which is to be hoped for, it would change all the congressional districts.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. As I understand it, the supervisors are the key men.

Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir.

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