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Mr. LOZIER. An analogy may be found in the practical operation of the election laws in the various States. Under the Australian ballot system an elector must make an oath that he can not prepare his own ballot, as the result of physical infirmity or inability to read and write, before he can have it prepared for him, the theory being that every elector should prepare his ballot without suggestion from any source within or without the polls.

The CHAIRMAN. That applies to States that do not require a literacy test to become a voter.

Mr. LozIER. I think you will find it in all States where they have the Australian ballot system.

The CHAIRMAN. In Connecticut we require a literacy test. They must be able to read the Constitution.

Mr. LOZIER. In the practical operation of these laws we find in every election hundreds of voters who will say they can not read or write or can not prepare their ballot because they want the election judges to prepare them. They say they want to vote the Democratic or Republican ticket, as the case may be.

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Mrs. KAHN. Of course, those are exceptions that we can not cover in a blanket census like this. We all have that kind of instances. think that condition is being gradually overcome, especially in those States where they have compulsory education laws, and where they make the age of the children that have to go to school up to 18. We have that in the State of California. I think that will be eventually wiped out. You can not correct a condition that is just in spots and among individuals. I think the best we can hope for is to get a questionnaire that will cover those general situations, but there is no use trying to cover every single individual case of people who are shirking. I think in many instances it is because they are ashamed and do not write very well. They do not want anybody to see how poorly they write, and say they can not write. I think that is true in many instances.

Mr. RANKIN. I know it is. The thing I am trying to drive at is to reduce that as much as possible.

Mrs. KAHN. Of course.

Mr. RANKIN. I suppose 1 person out of 10 in the United States is a voter. We must have about twelve or fifteen million voters. Mrs. KAHN. If we had the educational test they have in Connecticut, we would know.

Mr. RANKIN. We are more liberal than they are in Connecticut. Mrs. KAHN. We take it for granted that everybody can read and write.

Mr. RANKIN. We say they must read and write and understand the Constitution.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. MOORMAN, referring to the question asked by you in regard to the cost of the employees on the farm, I find here under farm expense, in section 6 of the Census of Agriculture, paragraph 30, "Amount expended in 1924 for farm labor." Would that not cover what you had in mind?

Mr. MOORMAN. The amount expended would not necessarily reflect anything.

The CHAIRMAN. That is on each farm?

Mr. MOORMAN. The farmer might have had four boys at work. The CHAIRMAN. You could not help that.

Mr. MOORMAN. I know, but that does not reflect what I want.

The CHAIRMAN. It seemed to me that might cover what you have in mind.

Mr. MOORMAN. These farm laborers get from a dollar to a dollar and a quarter and a dollar and a half a day. In Kentucky I think they get a dollar and a half. It was just for the purpose of comparing what those people receive for their labor with what is paid other classes of labor.

Mr. LOZIER. May I complete what I started to say a while ago when I was interrupted? What I said with reference to voters stating they could not prepare their ballot was only to supplement what Mr. Rankin had said with reference to the ability of people to read and write, but what I had in mind to say was this: I realize that we can not impose too severe a burden on the Census Bureau with reference to statistics they furnish, and I am sure they will work out a schedule which will reflect conditions as perfectly as is possible under existing conditions, but on the subject of whether or not a person can read or write the English language, it seems to me that would be very valuable information. I have in my files somewhere, and I think I can turn to it, data which shows this state of facts: A few years ago they had a very great strike in one of the textile districts in Massachusetts, and public gatherings were prohibited by the municipal authorities. The mayor issued a proclamation forbidding the assembling of crowds without permission. There was such a large foreign population in that community that these proclamations were published in seventeen different dialects, in order that these striking textile workers might be informed of the municipal regulation. We know as a matter of fact that Massachusetts is rapidly becoming a foreign colony. There is not a State in the Union in which the foreign element is growing more rapidly.

The CHAIRMAN. I will say for the old State that it is not going backward any more.

Mr. LOZIER. The point I am making is this. It might be imposing a burden on the Census Bureau, but it would be a very valuable set of facts if we knew how many people there are in the United States who could read and write or could speak and write the English language.

Mr. WHITE. I think we should hear from the ambassador from Massachusetts.

Mr. BOWLES. I think you will find they all vote the Democratic ticket.

Mr. LozIER. I was not referring to that, but we know there is no State where the foreign element is growing more rapidly.

Mr. RANKIN. I think that is one of the most important phases of this whole matter. I want to ask Doctor Hill if he thinks it would be possible to outline a card somewhat along the lines suggested a while ago, instead of having a series of questions on it. You are going to test a man on his reading. What do you mean when you ask a man if he can read? You do not mean whether he can read Shakespeare or Milton?

Doctor HILL. Certainly not.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you say a man could read the books published and used in the second grade school work could read?

Doctor HILL. Yes, sir; as far as our test is concerned.

Mr. RANKIN. That is what I am talking about. Suppose you would hand him a primer and he would open it. I believe that is

used before you get into the first grade. Suppose he could read the smallest words in there, would you say that man could read?

Doctor HILL. I think he would pass our test. He knows the letters in the alphabet, and knows them when they are used to form words.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you not think, in making that test, if you would have a card, perhaps with some writing or printing on it, and hand that to him and ask him to read it, it would be a good test?

Doctor HILL. That is the idea of the National Education Association.

Mr. THURSTON. Do you not think there would be great reluctance on the part of the enumerators to subject the citizen to that test? Would he not be met with a good deal of rudeness if he did it?

Mr. RANKIN. No. Some people consider any question by a census enumerator is improper, and meet it with rudeness.

Mr. THURSTON. Some of them are going to get their blocks knocked off if they ask that question.

Mr. RANKIN. Oh, no. They are protected by the same law that the United States marshal is, and you will have to give the people to understand that. The men in this business know that. The thing I am trying to develop is some way to get a more accurate literacy census of the United States. You can ask a man if he can write. Say he would write his name on a piece of paper, he would pass the test, as far as you are concerned. If he could read anything printed in the English language, I would say he would pass the test. Mr. JACOBSTEIN. You would not say writing a man's name would indicate that he could write?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I know a lot of business men who are foreigners and who had to learn how to sign checks.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand, but they wrote in some other language before they came here.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you not say they could write?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. They do do it.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. They sign their names.

Mr. RANKIN. That is writing.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You would not say he would have to write a manuscript?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I mean he can not spell the words or convey an idea in writing.

Mr. RANKIN. I want to know just what degree of efficiency in reading and writing you are going to set as the standard to say when a man passes the literacy test.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I am supporting your contention that we should get all the information, but I do not agree with your conclusion that because a man can sign his name he can write.

The CHAIRMAN. How are you going to do it? There are a good many things that can not be done. It is going to be very difficult to

ascertain.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. If you would hand a man a card or anything with printing on it and say, "Do you know what that says?" if he could tell I would put him down that he could read.

Mr. HILL. That is exactly the idea of the National Education Association.

Mr. RANKIN. The man would not know but that you were testing his eyesight. In my opinion, you could ascertain that much better if you had some simple printing on a card than in any other way, and you could get it without offending him or without his knowing what you had in mind.

Mrs. KAHN. Hand him a card bearing the inscription "Write your name." If he obeyed that instruction without any further instruction from the enumerator, you would know he could read.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Doctor HILL. We think some test of that kind could be applied, if the enumerator could meet every member of the family, but he meets only one or two. If he would take the time to get them all together and apply that test, we would never get through.

Mrs. KAHN. As a rule, if the person from whom you are getting the information can read and write, the probability is that you would get accurate data about the other members of the family. If the members of the family you meet can not read and write, you would probably get the right dope, as the boys would say, about the members of the family who can read and write. It seems almost impossible to cover every single person. The only think we can do is to get it as near as possible. Where these people say they can not read and write, then if you hand them the card I spoke of a while ago you can test them, as well as any others who are in the room. If you had only one member of the family present, if that person could read and write, you wuold probably get accurate information from that person about the other members of the family.

What would

The CHAIRMAN. That would be in the adult census. you do with the children, or the man who is palsied and can not write? You are going into a proposition that is almost impossible, because there is a great proportion who could not be included. Mrs. KAHN. This does not include children.

The CHAIRMAN. You are going into something that would be absolutely impossible.

Mrs. KAHN. I agree with Mr. Rankin's statement.

We want

to get as nearly a correct estimate as we can. I realize that it is impossible to get a 100 per cent literacy test.

The CHAIRMAN. What percentage do you think you would get? Mrs. KAHN. I imagine 90 would be a good proportion.

The CHAIRMAN. Leaving out children?

Mrs. KAHN. You do not count them now as being illiterate.
The CHAIRMAN. I am speaking of babies.

Mrs. KAHN. They would not be counted as illiterate. Is that true, Doctor Hill?

Doctor HILL. Not under 10 years of age.

Mrs. KAHN. After 10 years of age, in practically every State there is a compulsory school law. I would take it for granted that any child born in this country and has reached the age of 10 years can read and write, if the school aurthorities have done their duty. Mr. LOZIER. It seems to me this is a simple matter. It says here "Age last birthday; attended school at any time since September 1, 1919." That would not apply to adults. "Whether able to read." "Whether able to write." That would take care of the

infants, because here is a statement showing the age of that person. Suppose it shows the person is two years of age.

Mr. RANKIN. The thing we are driving at is to get this information. Mr. LOZIER. I do not believe it would be good policy or you would get good results by handing out to people any such card as was suggested, or going any further than propounding the inquiry as to whether or not they can read and write. I think it would be regarded with hostility by the people from whom you want to get this particular information. It would not make any difference to Mr. Rankin or Mr. Fenn or Mrs. Kahn, or anybody of that kind, but you want to get the information from a class of people who would resent and be humiliated and embarrassed by it, and they would think you were subjecting them to an unfair examination, and I do not believe you would get good results.

Mrs. KAHN. Certainly 10 per cent would be an enormous percentage who would misinform the enumerators in regard to whether they could read or write.

Doctor HILL. I think it would.

Mrs. KAHN. It would be a big margin.

Doctor HILL. I think it would.

The CHAIRMAN. What was that?

Mrs. KAHN. That 10 per cent would be a big margin of the people who would misinform the enumerator as to whether they could read or write.

Doctor HILL. That would be very large, I should think.

Mrs. KAHN. Do you not think so, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Kahn, if Doctor Hill or you were taking the census, I would think so, but these field men do not know much more than the people they are questioning.

Mrs. KAHN. That is the trouble. Sometimes they do not know as much.

Mr. RANKIN. They are invariably abrupt, and they are not diplomatic in their conversation or their attitude. I think they fail to get information on this proposition.

Mr. THURSTON. I am very much interested in this subject. I believe the State of Iowa stands first in literacy. I believe the figures are 99.1 per cent, and I would like to see the other 0.9 removed. But it seems to me Mr Lozier has expressed the situation, that no accurate test can be made, and it must be left to the individual to make replies that would indicate whether he is literate or not. believe the enumerators would incur a great amount of hostility if they were to attempt, either directly or indirectly, to hold a test while they are taking the enumeration. It seems to me in most instances the answers would be truthful and reliable.

Mr. RANKIN. Of course, they would become indignant if you would pry into their business affairs.

Mr. THURSTON. Then there is the question of the capacity of these enumerators to get this information. If we could select enumerators who are well educated and who possessed the requisites that committee feels enumerators should have, probably we could get all this information, but I apprehend the Census Buraeu will have great difficulty in obtaining enumerators who can satisfactorily discharge their duties.

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