Mr. MATTER. Of course, the war brought a great growth of houseto-house canvassing, too. You had this vast amount of finished products on hand. You had the Army thrown out of employment. You had the cancellation of orders, and the merchant had to either cut his inventory, absorb that in his inventory, or else sell his product by the house-to-house method, and those that were progressive sold by the house-to-house method, by high-powered salesmen. The books of those that were successful in doing that showed a good profit. Otherwise they had to take a loss by adjusting their inventories.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

Mr. WHITE. I would like to ask a question, Mr. Chairman, and that is: If the buyers of grain and wool, which is not in its fabricated condition, are included in the proposed draft of this schedule? I will illustrate what I have in mind. Before the days of the cooperative organizations there were thousands and thousands-tens of thousands of buyers, and shippers who sent their stuff into these commission merchants. That was a big industry and there was a tremendous amount of stuff shipped from the farm and feed lots, sent to these centers of distribution, or market places. For instance, wool

The CHAIRMAN. Wool goes to Boston.

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. For instance, when I was a boy, and that has been several weeks ago, we used to ship our cattle to Chicago or even to Buffalo. Now, will that kind of business be taken in by this proposed distribution census?

Mr. MATTER. I do not believe that we will be able to show that. I believe that would run into too many ramifications. I do believe that perhaps you would be able to some extent to get that information by agricultural questionnaires. We can get the information from the producers, but then when we pick it up in the small stores, under these classifications, the merchants would not be able to furnish us that information. The wholesale men, dealing in agricultural products, or the commission men, or the local agencies, might be able to do it. But I do not believe that we could run it through the gauntlet to where it gets to the consumer.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I take it that you are to tabulate your reports from the 45 or the 48 classifications that you have indicated. Mr. MATTER. That is right.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. That is the consumer's end. This is the other end, Mr. White.

Mr. WHITE. But that comes from the original producer, according to the statement from the gentleman.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Maybe I misunderstand you, then, Mr. White. You can get the information from the producer. You would get that information from the agricultural census.

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. But this is a census to give the final consumers' end, when the goods reach the ultimate consumer. But, the inbetweens are not included.

Mr. MATTER. You can get that information from the wholesaler. Mrs. KAHN. And from the manufacturers.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, you can get the information from the manufacturers.

Mr JACOBSTEIN. You do not know about the product from the time it leaves the producer until it reaches the consumer. Am I right about that?

Mr MATTER. You are right. You know the conditions in the fruit-growing industries. A train load of fruit leaves California for Kansas City, but before it gets there it is waybilled and sent to all sections of the country.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I would like to ask Mr. White what he had in mind.

Mr. WHITE. I can use this as an illustration: As I said, when I was a boy we used to ship our stock to Chicago frequently, and many times to Buffalo. That practice has been discontinued to a very large extent, and we have dealers and had them at that time and have them now; men who handled a good many hundred carloads in a single calendar year, of stuff which has been collected, bought up and shipped by carload to the market.

I do not contemplate that there should be a tabulation showing the amount of that business nor its final distribution; but a great deal of goods in an unfabricated condition, you understand, wool, etc., go the city of Boston and are handled that way.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Mr. Matter, would you think that it would be useful, as I think it would be, to get a little more information on the social cost of advertising as a part of our study of distribution? Mr. MATTER. Well, we discussed that in our national distribution conference, that is, the economic phases of advertising in the field of distribution. A committee was appointed and reported on that under the chairmanship of Stanley Resor. He is president of the J. Walter Thompson Co., and they made a number of recommendations as to classifications affecting advertising in connection with sales, but as to the social effect, I do not believe that has ever been gone into. I do not think that it has, Mr. Jacobstein.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. It is not so much the effect, but what I meant was as a part of the social advertising, what that is doing in building up certain lines; how much of that is necessary, or made possible by, or coincident with advertising.

Mr. MATTER. Yes; and perhaps what is most susceptible to this advertising is the principal thing.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. You say that we take certain salaries and wages in retail stores.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. That is fine. That gives you a very large field. Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Would it not be useful to take the cost of transportation, motor or otherwise, and advertising. Those are two factors in which we might economize.

Mr. MATTER. I think that they are subjects that are very pertinent, and I think something ought to be done to place that before the schedule-making people, the Census Bureau, or the advisory committee, so they will know whether or not to put those in. The transportation item would probably fall under the wholesalers or manufacturers, and perhaps delivery in the case of the retail stores, the cost of deliveries when a retailer sends a boy to make a delivery, or something of that character; he has to take that into consideration. to advertising, I believe that you could get that.

As

The CHAIRMAN. Why not bring in rent and all of those expenses of the store, too? You do not include rent, cost of the building, depreciation or repairs, or return to the owner of the building?

Mr. MATTER. No, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. One of the purposes of the study, as Mr. Hoover indicated, was to effect economy.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Here are two avenues in which economy may be effected: Transportation which Mr. Hoover himself recognized, and also social advertising, overhead.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Which may or may not be increasing. You can not save rent except as between one individual and another. I mean that in glancing over the returns a business man might reach the conclusion that he is spending too much money for advertising. Mr. MATTER. You see, Mr. Jacobstein, most trade associations to-day either collect the average or the common cost of doing business for their members, or they employ the Harvard bureau, or Ohio State, or the University of Nebraska, or some of the other State institutions to make those studies in order to secure the individual figures which are common to his line alone. He then compares those figures, those that are common to his line. Thereafter, if he sees that his expenses for advertising are above that which is paid commonly, he knows there may be a weak spot.

On the other hand, if he finds that his light and heat bills are less than the average he pats himself on the back.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. You are always looking at it from the individual business man's point of view.

Mr. MATTER. I am trying to look at it from the public's point of view.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. It seems to me that the real benefit of such a study would be greater as an individual study than as a part of the Census Bureau. The difficulty is that we might overload the census to such an extent that it would become top-heavy.

(Thereupon, at 11.45 o'clock a. m., the committee adjourned.)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
COMMITTEE OF THE CENSUS,
Tuesday, January 31, 1928.

H. R. 393

The committee convened in the committee room, House Office Building at 10.30 a. m., Mr. Fenn (chairman), presiding.

Present: Mr. Fenn (chairman), Mrs. Kahn, Mr. Greenwood, Mr. Thurston, Mr. White. Mr. Bowles, Mr. Jacobstein, Mr. Moorman, Mr. Rutherford, Mr. Lozier, and Mr. Rankin.

Present also: Messrs. Truesdell, Hirsch, Austin, Gosnell, and Doctor Hill, representing the Census Bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. If the committee will come to order, the Chair will read a communication in regard to this bill, received from the Secretary of Commerce:

Mr. RANKIN. He did not say anything about the agricultural

census.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. He says the agricultural census is already taken.

Mrs. KAHN. Provision is made for agricultural distribution.
The CHAIRMAN. The meeting is open.

Mr. LOZIER. I understand the letter will go in the record.
The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Mr. MOORMAN. I notice one purpose indicated is to ascertain the pay of those engaged in distribution.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you will find that in those samples we had. Mr. MOORMAN. I would like to ask the gentlemen representing the Census Bureau if it is contemplated in taking this census that the distribution, so far as agriculture is concerned, to gather figures upon which there could be some dependence to show the average earnings of the hired men, we will say, on the farms, so we can get a real picture of the actual conditions that prevail in that respect on the farms in the country to-day.

Doctor HILL. No. All we get is the total amount which the farmer pays for help on the farm.

Mrs. KAHN. Is the idea of the distribution census to get the total amount in the same way, or the amount paid the individual?

Doctor HILL. The total amount.

Mrs. KAHN. Just as they are getting it in agriculture?

Doctor HILL. Yes.

Mr. MOORMAN. The thought I had in mind is that the report of this census might reflect the actual status of the people dependent upon agriculture, not only the men who own the farms, not only the tenants who rent the farms, but all of those directly engaged in work on the land or having to do with the land. If it is proper and right and necessary and justified to get the cost to the merchant in distribution, is it not equally necessary and justified and important to get the cost to the man on the farm, and get the whole picture of what he receives and what he pays out, showing the balance or deficit, just like any other business?

Doctor HILL. I think we get just as much information in regard to the farmers as it is proposed to get in regard to the retail dealers. We only get the main items of expenditure. We do not go into book balances and show just how much profit he makes and what rate of wages he pays, because those would be details we could not go into. Mr. MOORMAN. Do you not propose to do that?

The CHAIRMAN. Let me interrupt for a moment. I presume this is in accord with the suggestion made by Mr. Moorman. This is a letter from Mr. Olsen, of Agricultural Economics Bureau. I was going to take it up later, but my colleague called my attention to it and I will read it:

The CHAIRMAN. These hearings will have to close pretty soon, and while everybody has been given the greatest freedom and the chairman intends they shall have the freedom, within limitations, we ought to get through some time. When I use the word "limitations, I do not use it in the sense of cutting any one off, but if we can confine ourselves to the distribution census, we can get through with that, and it seems to me the proposition advanced by Mr. Moorman, which I approve of and I think the committee will approve of, should

be taken up with the agricultural census rather than the distribution

census.

Mr. MOORMAN. That is perfectly agreeable to me.
The CHAIRMAN. Does that not appeal to you?

Mr. MOORMAN. Yes. I think you are right.

The CHAIRMAN. It should be the agriculture census.

Mr. MOORMAN. Well, I am not sure about that. If an investigation of the receipts of a laborer in this other census is correct, it would seem to me it would be correct in agriculture.

The CHAIRMAN. Undoubtedly, the distribution census will mainly be taken in places of distribution, places where distribution takes place, and include the whole country. When you get to the wages, etc., for agriculture, that comes from the farming section, and it would come under the agricultural schedule.

Mr. MOORMAN. Will the chairman permit me to make my purpose plain?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. MOORMAN. If in the census of agriculture a true picture, as full a picture as can possibly be given of the farming conditions, is there provided for, I certainly have no objection and would not want to burden the other with it.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you understand me clearly.

Mr. MOORMAN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. It would better done in the agriculture census than in the distribution census.

I will ask the representative of the Census Bureau to furnish us with an estimate of the money which will be required, as we will undoubtedly be asked on the floor what this will cost, and also the number of employees that will be necessary to work in the taking of the census. If the committee is willing, I will ask them to present that at this time.

Mr. GOSNELL. Mr. Chairman, we have not prepared any figures showing the approximate number of persons that will be employed, but I can give you that offhand. There will be approximately 100,000 enumerators, exclusive of those engaged in collecting data in distribution; there will be 375 supervisors, 8,000 clerks and assistants to the supervisors, and about 4,000 interpreters. The interpreters are only used in sections where it is absolutely necessary. Of course, the force in Washington, Mr. Hirsch will tell you about. The cost will be about $34,763,000.

Mr. MOORMAN. Does that include the distribution?

Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir. The estimated cost of the enumeration is $13,408,000. That includes the outlying possessions. That includes the pay of supervisors, clerks and assistants, enumerators and interpreters.

Mr. RANKIN. That is included in the $35,000,000?

Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, sir.

Mrs. KAHN. These are just details?

Mr. GOSNELL. Yes. In the manufacturing census the estimated cost is $1,800,000. That is considerably less than the expense in 1920. In the distribution census, the estimated cost is $3,250,000. Mrs. KAHN. How much will the agricultural census cost? Mr. GOSNELL. Do you mean the field work?

Mrs. KAHN. Yes.