dollars went into the process of distribution; that is, from the time the goods were produced or manufactured it cost 51 per cent of each of the consumer's dollars to take that merchandise through the various chains into the hands of the consumer.

If we can bring about the same economy in distribution during the next decade in the distributing end that has been brought about in the producing end, that would naturally bring about lower prices. Mr. JACOBSTEIN. This data is going to give us the spread?

Mr. MATTER. It will not give us the spreads. You will always find them when you go in search of costs, but it will give us the element of salaries and the wages which is more than 50 per cent in most lines of businesses.

In other words, salaries and wages constitute more than 50 per cent of doing business in the great majority of stores and there is a possibility for economy there.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Do you think that it would be practical to include that data in some lines in order to find out what the spread is, so as to give us a basis?

Mr. MATTER. No, sir; I do not. I believe in the case of department stores and in the case of mail-order houses, and perhaps in the case of chain stores, organizations which employ a different type of accounting would be able to give us the information, because they are based on intelligence or knowledge. We would find in dealing with the department stores, mail-order houses, and possibly chain stores a different type of information, and we could get what we wanted from those.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. You think this data you are going to get through the census would be sufficiently scientific and accurate to guide a business man in investing his capital?

Mr. MATTER. Yes. And, I never realized how never realized how painstaking and intelligent, I might say, that the Census Bureau was until I had occasion to get in touch with them about eight months ago, and during the last eight months we have worked with them hand in hand on this proposition, and I will say that the way the job was done in those 11 cities is a remarkable illustration of their thoroughness and efficiency. To show you how strict they are, there is an inspection made at random of every 30 or 0 stores and if one of those stores had been excluded or missed from the district enumeration, or the figures were out of line, the entire district is recounted. Furthermore, they have people whose judgment would tell them immediately whether or not there were any inconsistencies in the report or schedules. If there was any inconsistency they would immediately sail in and investigate, and the system to be followed in checking, the director assures us, if the instructions are carried out, will perhaps result in an even more accurate census than the census of manufacturers, and that is pretty good now.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Have you included in your schedules the distribution of gasoline?

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I wondered whether the chamber of commerce had recommended that.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, that is included.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I was wondering whether you were going to recommend that in the next census that we get that.

Mr. MATTER. It would cover the wholesale and retail sales of gasoline and oil.

Mr. JACORSTEIN. And automobile accessories?

Mr. MATTER. Yes, automobile accessory stores are included too, in this 45 or 48 classifications. We have included automobile accessories, gasoline, and oil. In this they have about 80 classifications of merchandise, so that you can tell how much hardware is sold through a 5 and 10 cent store. They are so arranged that they will give the information pretty accurately. That is necessary, because, as you know, merchandise to-day is seeking the consumer, whereas 10 years ago the consumer was seeking the merchandise.

Mr. JACORSTEIN. Where is the pressure coming from for this information?

Mr. MATTER. There is no pressure, Mr. Jacobstein. In 1925 we had a national conference on distribution. A number of committees were appointed. One was under Owen D. Young. Mr. Hoover appointed the members of the committee at our request, and they recommended that the report of the committee be adopted and that the committee be carried on as a department of the chamber, the committee to study distribution data needed in order to round out general statistical data. They decided that three things were necessary. First, a distribution census; secondly, periodic data on prices, quantities of merchandise, and stocks and produce, so as to be able to give the manufacturer information to look far enough in advance so that he could correlate his production with consumption and take out the peaks and valleys in production and distribution. Thirdly, application of the Federal Reserve Board reports on the condition of wholesale and retail trade, and that would cover a greater number of stores.

Now, the committee decided that a census of distribution was the first outstanding requirement we should have, and that the other things could wait.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I was wondering whether in making this you had

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead. I want to read this into the record later.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mrs. KAHN. We are very much interested in this.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. In taking this census you follow the goods, or the Census Bureau has followed them through from the farmer or the manufacturer to the wholesaler, the jobber, the commission men, into the retail channels.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Who wants this information?

Mr. MATTER. Well, I could not tell you which predominates, but we have had calls for it from all classes and they are all interested in it.

I might also say that there is another field that is interested, and very vitally interested, and that is the banks, because when a retailer comes into the community the banks extend him credit. If the banker has this information and the merchant applies for credit he will be able to tell whether or not conditions warrant that credit. That is, this will give the average conditions in a community and it would just be a case of him applying his judgment to it.

Mrs. KAHN. Does the desire for this information or the request for this information come from the retailers?

Mr. MATTER. We have requests for the information by retailers through their group associations, through their merchandising associations and institutions, like the retail research bureau, and the retail division of the Denver Chamber of Commerce, and the retail section of the Chicago Association of Commerce.

Mrs. KAHN. Well, the requests come practically through the chambers of commerce?

Mr. MATTER. Yes. And we have some requests from manufacturing associations. Then some manufacturers are requesting this information. Some of those requests are coming direct.

We have some requests from the manufacturers' associations and we have some manufacturers' meetings that have urged that this census be taken.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I have missed some of this discussion and there are some questions that I would like to ask.

Mr. MATTER. Surely.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Did you, in taking this census of distribution, study the differences between the private enterprises and cooperatives?

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir; and chain stores and mail-order houses. Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I mean, strictly cooperatives where the consumer owns them.

Mr. MATTER. We have only studied the proposition for cooperative marketing. We did not run across many of the other types of cooperatives.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. What I want to get at now is simply the difference between the types of cooperative buying agencies and cooperatives, such as they have in England.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. As you know, nearly one-fifth of the total population of England are members, as consumers, of cooperatives.

Mr. MATTER. And it goes back to the tea plantations and steamship lines.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. The consumers.

Mr. MATTER. Yes.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Can you obtain that information as to cooperatives?

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir; that is, provided the schedules call for it, Mr. Jacobstein.

The CHAIRMAN. You referred to what Mr. Hoover had to say about the committee of which Owen D. Young was secretary. May I read that? It is just a short statement.

We are almost wholly lacking in the basic data as to distribution. We know our production in most important lines of activity. We know a great deal about stocks of commodities in the hands of producers. We know very little as to stocks in the hands of consumers, the area of distribution in any commodity. If we had a census of distribution I am convinced that this information would automatically eliminate a great amount of waste in the whole distribution machinery.

That is what Secretary Hoover said in his remarks which brought about the appointment of the committee under Owen D. Young. Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I think that you referred to that element. Mr. MATTER. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. You did not?

Mr. MATTER. What I referred to was not that statement but the other statement.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I want to be put in this record now as in favor of an agricultural and a distribution census. The only thing is, I would like to have it made very clear in the record as to the reasons for it and the justification.

Mrs. KAHN. Yes; we want that information.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. People will say on the floor, How much is this going to cost? And they will want to know just why we are spending $200,000, or whatever it is. They will say, "Is it for the benefit of a group of business men that want it for the benefit of knowing where to locate their next chain store?"

Mrs. KAHN. And as to whether it will benefit the man on the street. We want information as to that.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. And they will want to know what it is going to cost.

Mr. MATTER. I would suggest that you ask that question of the Bureau of the Census. I really do not know what the cost of the enumeration will be.

The CHAIRMAN. I might say here that I have requested the census people to give an estimate before the hearings close. I thought that we could dispose of this matter now. Of course, they will be able to give us that information.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I asked that question because I have had a feeling that the Government is going into the business now of supplying information in all industries, and all lines of activities, frequently merely for the benefit of those in it.

Mr. MATTER. Yes.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. And so I want to know what it will cost the taxpayers. The taxpayers are footing the bill.

Mr. MATTER. I could state very definitely that this demand is coming from all types of business people; all types will benefit because there is no form of business enterprise to-day that is not in some way, either directly or indirectly, interested in the subject of cost distribution. Even the insurance companies are interested in it because of the fact that they insure stocks of goods, bad debts, that is, active accounts receivable. The fire insurance companies are interested in it, and it goes all of the way down the line of the business structure. They want to find out about it. There is an interrelation there that we can not deny.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Has anyone inquired into the question of installment sales?

The CHAIRMAN. We have only spoken of the chain stores and department stores and gasoline. I do not think that we have gone into that.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I just wanted to open up the question. I have been reading recently two very interssting volumes by Professor Seligman on the economy of installment selling, financed, I think, by General Motors.

Because of the importance of that subject I want to raise the question now, while we are taking a census of distribution, that a great many people will turn to that volume and say, "How much of those sales were on the installment basis and how much of those were on a cash basis?"

Now, do you think it is advisable to secure data on that point? Mr. MATTER. I do, if we confine it to certain lines. For instance, the sales of pianos and musical instruments; sales of automobiles and furniture; but I think if we extend it to that class of merchandise which has just had the plan applied to it, for instance, the 10plan payment for clothing, which Professor Seligman refers to, where there is no large unit of value, I think that would not be proper. I think that we should determine whether we want it applied to everything or where we want it applied. I think if we get that information as to installment sales, as to commodities, and that should be governed by certain price lines.

Mrs. KAHN. A great deal of women's clothing, and so on, are sold on the installment plan.

Mr. MATTER. Fur coats.

Mrs. KAHN. Yes, and ladies' clothing generally.

Mr. MATTER. Especially department stores. Their sales are such that they know what their sales are. But they have a different report. Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I do not know but I should think that the department stores would be interested.

Mr. MATTER. I agree. And they do make sales on the installment plan.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. The department stores ought to be able to tell us the percentage of sales that are carried on the old 30-day basis. and those that are carried now on the installment basis, or long-time credit. I think that it is very important for us to find out the total amount of business that is done on the installment basis.

Mr. MATTER, I agree, Mr. Jacobstein.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. As long as we are going to go into the question of distribution, I would like to have some one that is interested present that subject in connection with this census on distribution. Whom would you suggest, Mr. Matter, who might come before us on that subject?

Mr. MATTER. Well, I think that perhaps one of the best informed men is Dr. Frank A. Fall, of the National Association of Credit Men, 41 Park Row, New York. Of course, his interest would be entirely unprejudiced. He would not be biased in any manner. He is in the center of the picture and he perhaps could give the practical situation instead of the theoretical side.

I agree thoroughly with your remarks that the installment sales should be enumerated and the distinction should be shown between the 30 days or the old basis and the cash sales. Well, perhaps, it would be very well to restrict as to governing factors, as to the installment sales, and the intelligence of the merchant or type of his records.

Mrs. KAHN. I am interested in this from the customers' point of view, because that is what I am, just the ordinary person on the street. It seems to me that most of the big concerns now are either cash and carry, or installment organizations.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Or long-time credit.

Mr. MATTER. Yes; houses of that character seem to do very little business on a short-time basis. I think that everybody is having that experience. It is either chain stores, which we refer to as cash and carry stores, or installment or long time credit. There has been a tremendous growth along that line.

Mrs. KAHN. That is my impression.