Mr. MATTER. I do not think so, because we will have the political subdivisions. It will be given out according to the political subd visions, the city, county, or State. There is no necessity of anybody publishing it.

Now, as to the question of rivalry between the two towns, I say that perhaps that is one of the things that is needed in America to-day. It is a case of the survival of the fittest, and the business comes to those communities which are best equipped to handle it or take care of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Do we not have that now as regards our post offices and post-office receipts? I know in New England that there is great rivalry between the cities there as to the post-office receipts, and also that is true with regard to population.

Mr. RANKIN. Every time we take a census we have that. That is where I get my information, or my suggestion on this proposition. Every time you take the census, why, all of the towns that are adjacent to each other begin a row to have the census taken over again, and the question there is usually on the ground that one or the other has been discriminated against.

Mr. MATTER. I think that the Census Bureau is usually very efficient in making their counts, and their recheck. I know that was the case of Newark, N. J. I happen to know about Newark, because I used to live there. Newark complained that they had discriminated against them.

Mr. THURSTON. I would like to ask one question.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. THURSTON. Of course, we all recognize the trend toward the consolidation in both commerce and industry and the momentum gained by the chain store consolidations is becoming so far reaching. I wonder whether you have considered as to whether or not this information, if it is collected, if it would be of particular value to those big organizations in trying to acquire or enter new fields, where they are not now interested?

Mr. MATTER. Well, I may say this: The chain stores, because of their strong position financially have their experts who can go into a store and note the size of stock and the number of sales people, and approximate within 5 per cent of the annual sales. They can tell what business is being done. This information will not help the chain stores so much as it will the independent people.

Mr. THURSTON. If you will elaborate a little bit on that phase I am sure that the committee would be interested in that.

Mr. MATTER. The tendency now is to establish retail sections within the chambers of all of the larger cities. The local chambers of commerce and boards of trade have divisions for the purpose of interesting themselves in or taking care of the problems of the independent retailers.

Now, we know the advantages that are claimed for the chain store, quantity buying, and the fact that they only handle goods with a very rapid turnover. On the other hand there are certain merchandising activities in favor of the independent in that he has a closer acquaintance with the community and by scientific buying he is in about the same situation. Then, he has the advantage of personal contact with his customers.

Now, during the past two years I have addressed approximately 30 merchants' institutions on the question of the merchants of

the town getting together and banding together for common good, and improving the condition of their stock and the quality of their stocks carried, or adopting a cooperative plan of advertising, or a plan of advertising in the community on the basis of "support your local independent store.

I do not feel that any of us think that we can ever defeat any economic law. We may be able to stave off certain conditions, but if the chain-store method is the most economical way of doing business, I feel that if the independent people are asleep and continue to be asleep, they will go out of business, and the man that will pep up and do a good job of merchandising will get the business, and will be able to keep it.

Mr. THURSTON. Has your organization made any survey in the field of chain-store operation particularly as to the question of public good or public policy of the community?

Mr. MATTER. Our organization has never undertaken any study of that kind, or has not projected itself into that, but we have gathered perhaps all of the authoritative data that is available.

I might say just this morning a copy of a speech delivered by Beckman, of the Chain Stores Association, crossed my desk, which claimed that economically it saved the country $100,000,000 a year. I have no way of checking that figure, but a copy of that speech is available.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this in connection with this tentative distribution. In this-I have before me the "Retail and Wholesale Trade of Kansas City, Mo., a detailed report on sales, merchandise outlet, number of establishments, employees, wages, and inventories."

I am informed, and I have copies of them here, I think, that reports have been made on several other cities that have had a census such as this kind taken, and reports prepared in accordance with this report on Kansas City, which I have before me. We have had surveys made in Kansas City, Baltimore, Syracuse, Providence, R. I., Chicago, Ill., Denver, Colo., Seattle, San Francisco, Fargo, N. Dak., Springfield, Ill., and Atlanta, Ga., taking in what they deemed cities they should take for that survey throughout the country.

What I was going to ask you was in connection with the question raised by our colleague, Mr. Rankin, in regard to disputes and tangles on the validity of the census reports that might be taken through the jealousies of certain communities. Now, these cities here are of the same class. They may differ as to population, as Syracuse differs from Chicago, but they are practically the same class of cities throughout the country.

Have you heard anything, for instance, from San Francisco, finding fault with their census and comparing it with cities corresponding in size as San Francisco?

Mr. MATTER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, instances of jealousy aroused between cities on account of that census?

Mr. MATTER. No, sir. One feature of all of these reports is that they are all on a comparable basis.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but they might arouse rivalry.

Mr. MATTER. We have the same situation with regard to the manufacturing census, and we do not have any trouble of that kind.

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The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would, as briefly and as fully as you can, explain to the committee the exact proposition that is called for in the census of distribution. In other words, what would be your point of view, and your knowledge which is great, as to whether the census on distribution should be limited, and explain how far you would go. Just give us, if you can, and I am sure you can, your position in regard to a census of distribution. I think that we would like to get the difference. I have talked to some members of the committee this morning, and we would like to get the differences in our mind.

I will say, for instance, we want to know the people who are back of it, know what they desire, what the intention is, and what the problem is.

First, my question would relate particularly to commerce and not to agriculture, the feature that you say you do not know anything about. Let us endeavor to separate in our minds the census of population, which is constitutional, and the census of agriculture, which is in the law at the present time, and the census of distribution, and confine our discussion for the moment in what we have to say to the census of distribution, keeping that in our minds, as recommended, I may say, by the Department of Commerce, because they put in the bill, and also the chambers of commerce, or business men of the country.

I think that if we can get that difference in our minds, differentiating those three propositions, one being in the law, one being constitutional, and the other being the one that is up for discussion, that that would be of very great value to the committee.

Mr. MATTER. We have felt that the census of distribution should cover just the question, in the beginning of consumer goods, and it would be possible to elaborate or enlarge, perhaps later on. But at the present time most of the elements which the retailer and wholesaler, as well as the manufacturer, needs are those relating to scientific marketing. Therefore, the census of distribution, as we see it, should cover all merchandise passing through the wholesale and retail channels; wholesale including commission merchants, manufacturers' agents, cooperative marketing societies.

We do not feel, at the present time, that it would be wise at the beginning to attempt to widen the activities.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you include the retail? You did not include retail. I presume that you intended to do that.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, I included that. We believe that if we went into the question of, for instance, vegetables, at the beginning, we would run up against the proposition that would be insurmountable because ignorance on the part of the retailers, especially, would preclude any action of that kind.

I think if proper schedules were prepared, the limitations of which are to be left to the Director of the Census and his advisory committee, we could get as a beginning the fundamental basis, and enlargement could be made in future years.

We will have no trouble with the store classifications, of the wholesale or the retail. The trouble will come with the classification of the commodities: Just how fine that distinction should be, so far as going from the manufacturer or the producer to the wholesale concern. We perhaps may be able to get a designation of the fruits and vegetables, relating, of course, to the agricultural field; but

when we leave the wholesalers I have a strong feeling that it will be necessary for us to group those commodities into vegetables or fruits.

The same thing applies to the grocery field. It is impossible to attempt to segregate flour, sugar, and everything else, because the retailer of groceries does not know what his sales are. He does not have an elaborate accounting system that is necessary.

I believe, in brief, Mr. Chairman, that covers the proposition that I would like to urge, that the schedule be made not too long or too elaborate, and be left to the discretion of the Director of the Census, whose force we have found is efficient and is able to carry on this work, as has been shown as a result of nearly a hundred years' experience since the taking of the first census of manufacturers.

We think that the census should cover also the political subdivisions; that is, corporate limits of cities, counties, and States.

If we have the data as to the political subdivisions and as to geographic limitations of certain areas that will prevent going into that entire area, economic area. If we had that information it could be adjusted so that the sales territory and the sales quotas might be laid out.

Now, on the question of the businesses which are interested at the present time. We have varied interests and we have as chairman of the subcommittee on census Dr. Paul Cherrington, who is director of research for the J. Walter Thompson Co. They handle the advertising activities for some of the biggest concerns of the country, and I might say I voice Doctor Cherrington's opinion when I make these remarks. Perhaps I could give some additional information if you would ask me some questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions that any members of the Committee would like to ask the gentleman?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I was a little bit late in coming in and did not bear all of your statement. I was particularly interested in that particular phase of the census, and I would like to ask you some questions. Perhaps I may be duplicating.

The CHAIRMAN. For the benefit of the gentlemen who has just come in, will you just repeat what you have said about that. I will say I have asked hin to present to the committee his exact ideas as brief as he could with respect to the distribution census, not restricting his time at all, but completely, the exact proposition; and if you will just state that again for the benefit of these gentlemen who have just come in.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. What is the purpose of the distribution data, as you gentlemen see it?

Mr. MATTER. To enable scientific planning at the present time, which has been neglected-we have had no figures whatsoever on one-half of the business field. We have data on manufacturers, mining, quarries, and agriculture.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. You want to get scientific marketing?
Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Would you mind stating just what you mean by that?

Mr. MATTER. We want to know where certain classes or every class of merchandise is being sold. It gives the consuming power, gives the purchasing power, of the communities if we know where

the sales are made, the retail sales, so the purpose of the data would be to guide a business man in looking for a place, a location.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. It would help him in selecting a proper place for a chain store? Or just what do you mean by that?

Mr. MATTER. Well, it may be that through the cooperative form of marketing he would be able to come in and avail himself of all of this data which could be brought together within the associations, and he could then select the channels through which it was going whether the wholesale or the retail.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. It is not that I am opposed to it. You understand that. I am trying to get some information and want to 'understand your remarks.

Mr. MATTER. I understand.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. The data would be beneficial primarily to the manufacturers seeking markets and developing those markets intelligently?

Mr. MATTER. That is right.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. The wholesalers might be benefited and the markets developed intelligently.

Mr. MATTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. It would not help the retailers?

Mr. MATTER. I think it would, Mr. Jacobstein, for this reason: If the retailer-we will say, for instance, a retail butcher-that he would like to open a store in a certain city; if he could take all of this data, avail himself of it, he could find the total sales of meat, poultry, and fish that the community consumed, the amount in certain figures. He could take this data and from it find out the average sales from the stores.

Now, it is a recognized rule of thumb, which has been proven by the Department of Agriculture, that it takes so many families to support one butcher shop, because the margin is so small and the consumption limited to perhaps 2,500 calories, so that there is just so much to a family.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. That would be true, probably, with the gentleman who operated chain retail stores, but you do not think that the average retailer operating a little store here in Washington, D. C., or in my town, is going to dig into the census data to find out about the location of retail stores?

Mr. MATTER. I think that he would be glad to. There is a growing recognition of the fact that men, when they are going to open up new stores, get all of the information they can, and it is a fact that when a man goes to open up a new store he wants to go to the local business organizations and maybe to the chairman of the boards of trade and they will advise him.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I can see how very helpful that would be to a chain store in trying to discover where to locate their next store. Mr. MATTER. They know.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I can see how this data would be useful to them. Mr. MATTER. Surely.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Now, the thing that I am coming to in my next question is, Of what benefit is this to, or where does the consumer come in on this; and also, the agricultural producer?

Mr. MATTER. The agricultural producer comes in here. The investigation made by Sydney Anderson's committee some six or seven years ago revealed, I think, that 51 per cent of the consumer's