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Mr. GOSNELL. The primary object, Mr. Chairman, is to find out, first, how many stores of different classes there are in the United States, how many people are employed, what their wages amount to, the amount of stock that they carry, the amount of sales of different commodities that they carry, expressed in dollars, and the number of stores which sell the different commodities. That is all published in these booklets.

Mr. JOHNSON. In taking that census with regard to these several cities, did you find department stores with some employees handling certain stock and receiving a percentage on the sales?

Mr. GOSNELL. We don't know as to that, Mr. Johnson. We included those bonuses, their bonuses or commissions, you meanthe payments as bonuses or commissions are included in the salaries and wages.

Mr. MOORMAN. It strikes me that the purpose of the census of distribution depends on the angle from which you look at it, or the thing in which you are interested, and that is what we are trying to determine, as I see the matter. Now, I happen to be especially interested in agricultural matters, and I would like for you to state just what benefit this census of distribution will be to a farmer.

Mr. GOSNELL. It shows, in the first place, the types of stores which usually sell farm products.

Mr. MOORMAN. Well, he knows that already.

Mr. GOSNELL. I know he does. That is very true. That is very true. It also shows the quantity of dairy products and poultry products, in this particular case, which are sold in a particular community.

Mr. RANKIN. It shows the amount in money?
Mr. GOSNELL. It shows the amount in money.

Mr. MOORMAN. Right at that point-you know that the former is more interested in the amount of the commodity produced and on hand, the spread between his price and the consumers, etc., than he is in what it brings, because he knows what it brings, and the public and everybody interested in that particular product has a right to know all the other features.

Mr. GOSNELL. Yes, but he would know the approximate price it brings anyway.

The CHAIRMAN. Isn't one of the objects of this census of distribution to open up markets? A very essential part of it is the ascertainment of where a market is good and where a market is poor.

Mr. MOORMAN. I wish you would just illustrate to me just assume that I am a farmer, a diversified farmer, in Kentucky; I would like to ask what the benefits of the census of distribution, as seen by you, would be to me in the event that it is carried out?

Mr. GOSNELL. Well, in the first place we will assume that you live within marketing distance of a city of, say, 30,000 people. You know what is the production of the various products within a marketing area of that city. In getting the census of distribution we will show you the amount in dollars and cents of the different farm products that are consumed or sold in that particular city. In that way you will be able to figure out the average consumption per person in that city.

Mr. RANKIN. You would have to go higher than that. You would have to make a special trip by agents and find out the amount of a certain commodity that it took there to bring a certain price before you could ever arrive at the amount distributed.

Mr. GOSNELL. He would have that knowledge, wouldn't he, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. No.

Mr. GOSNELL. He would have a general knowledge of it at least.
Mr. RANKIN. He might have a guess. We can guess at it.

Mr. GOSNELL. He knows what he does with his own product.
Mr. JOHNSON. Let me put this question to you.

Mr. MOORMAN. Would you mind letting him finish answering my question first? I just want to know what the benefits would be to a farmer. State your ideas; then we can consider that hereafter.

Mr. GOSNELL. I started to say, in this event he would be able to figure out the amount of each commodity consumed in that town. He would know then whether his production should be increased or decreased, and also whether that particular town is a good market for his commodity.

Mr. JOHNSON. Right along with that, take cooperative marketing, would that come in and upset your figures? For instance, in the district where I live, in the northwestern corner of the United States, is one small community-covering a good many miles, however—who ship six or eight carloads of eggs per week 3,500 miles to New York City to be sold as fresh eggs. Now, would that long shipment, starting with cooperative marketing, count anywhere in their figures or in the New York figures?

Mr. GOSNELL. It would count in that particular city's figures. They would be classified to show the amount of goods of the different kinds sold through the cooperative marketing organization.

Mr. JOHNSON. There would be a separate branch. Cooperative marketing would be a separate branch altogether.

Mr. LOZIER. Would this census show that, say, 30 carloads of eggs arrived from that particular community and also show that those eggs were sold in New York? Would it show the origin of the shipment and the place of sale both?

Mr. GOSNELL. We have been trying to work out a plan of that kind, but we are not successful in this instance, because it was restricted to so few cities. But we are working on a plan of that kind so as to show the origin and place of final distribution of the commodities.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, I want you to consider the proposition of including in that schedule not only the amount of money received at the point of distribution, but the amount of commodity that it took to bring that amount of money. It is not distribution of money we are after; it is distribution of commodities, and I am going to ask you some questions about the additional cost that all this is going to entail on the Government before we close these hearings.

Mr. GOSNELL. Mr. Rankin, may I make this suggestion in regard to the distribution of the farm products. I am going to ask that those questions be added to the agricultural schedule instead of making up a special schedule for that purpose. In that way you can get most of your quantities for your agricultural products.

Mr. RANKIN. Frankly, I think I shall insist on that schedule on all items. If we are going to have a census of distribution I want a census of distribution of commodities, showing where they went.

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Rankin, how could you do it? How could you take the cantaloupe industry of Imperial Valley in California, for

instance. It goes out all over the United States and probably on ships abroad. If you undertook to carry out a census of distribution of something that is handled in that way it would be a tremendous task.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mr. Johnson, I will just show you right there where you are wrong.

Mr. JOHNSON, I want to be informed.

Mr. RANKIN. I will be glad to inform you. You go out here to Delmonico's, we will say that he sells cantaloupes. You show up there with this schedule, and you tell him, "We want to know, Mr. Delmonico, how many dollars worth of cantaloupes you sold last year." He says, "I sold $15,000 worth." Then you ask him, "Mr. Delmonico, how many cases of cantaloupes did you sell?" It is just as easy-I don't see how anybody could be puzzled-it is just as easy, almost, to get both of these schedules as it is to get one of them.

You go to any business man in your town and you say, "Mr. Jones," or "Mr. Smith, how many dollars worth of work shirts did you sell last year?" He will say, "I sold $2,000 worth." "How many dozens of those shirts did you sell?" There would be no trouble about that at all. If you are going to make it a census of distribution and get those figures in that way you will have a census report that will be worth something to the American people, and especially to the people you and I represent.

Mr. GOSNELL. Mr. Rankin, we have found in these enumerations that it is practically impossible to get any segregation whatever showing the sale of different kinds of commodities in stores where the amount of business is less than $100,000 a year, on account of their method of doing business. You take the item of groceries, for instance, I don't see how we could possibly find how out many cases of corn or how many cases of tomato soup were sold by a grocery store when we are not even able to get in many cases the amount of bakery products he sold separate from groceries.

Mr. RANKIN. How are you going to get the amount of money it brought?

Mr. GOSNELL. You can't get it.

The same situation covers hundreds of items. It is true of furniture. You can't go to the furniture house and find out how many chairs they sell.

The CHAIRMAN. The business man of the United States ought to receive full consideration from this committee, as much as any other industry, and why there should be any opposition to what they want and the expressions of what they want I can not conceive.

Mr. RANKIN. I will explain it to you when we come to argue this bill.

Mr. MOORMAN. I will say this: I have asked my question; I do not know whether I am entitled to any part of that or not, but if I am, I am willing to assume it. My attitude is that I am not trying to deny any man or any set of men anything on earth to which they are entitled, but, at the same time, all I desire for agriculture is that which I do not feel it has heretofore received altogether, as much consideration as it is entitled to, and, if I feel that I can get that, I

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want everybody else to have exactly what they desire that is good for them.

The CHAIRMAN. I personally know that this committee is entirely in sympathy with agriculture, and as far as limitations of the Census Bureau's duties are concerned, this committee is willing to grant to agriculture everything that agriculture needs. There is no question about that, and for myself I think that the business men of this country should be entitled to the same consideration.

Mr. JOHNSON. The only point about distribution is that if it is a new proposition and the bill goes on the floor, the committee must be informed as to all angles of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Surely.

Mr. JOHNSON. These questions are not for the purpose of criticism, but simply to inform ourselves.

Mr. MOORMAN. Oh no, that is not my attitude either to those gentlemen over there who are responsible for this job, or to the committee, or anybody else.

Mr. LOZIER. I feel, Mr. Chairman, that this question of distribution is a new one and it is interesting, and I want all the information I can get on it.

The CHAIRMAN. We shoudl have it and we will have it.

Doctor HILL. You must bear in mind, gentlemen, this is a beginning, entering a new field and we want to be careful not to undertake too much to begin with. If we can take this census as it is planned now and make it successful, I am quite sure it will be repeated. Now, the information that Mr. Rankin wanted, and that the rest of you mentioned, is good information; we do not deny that, but we can not take everything in the beginning, and we will succeed better in the end, I believe, if we content ourselves with rather a modest beginning, and then with the experience we have had, and after we have gotten these merchants accustomed to answering our questions and in a good frame of mind about it, we can gradually develop it to cover these other items. I think that is the idea with which we are starting out.

Mr. DE ROUEN. Well, I believe that the general information that has been expressed here will be valuable to the committee, and by a general process of elimination of it we in the end may arrive at something more definite.

Doctor HILL, Yes; certainly.

The CHAIRMAN. We will meet to-morrow morning at half past ten. (Whereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, the committee adjourned until 10.30 o'clock a. m., Tuesday, January 24, 1928.)

COMMITTEE ON THE CENSUS,
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
Tuesday, January 24, 1928

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. E. Hart Fenn (chairman), presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. I understand there are some people here from the Department of Agriculture whe wish to be heard.

STATEMENT OF NILS A. OLSEN, BUREAU OF AGRICULTURAL ECONOMICS, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

Mr. OLSEN. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, some days ago you asked the Secretary of Agriculture to appear in person before your committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Or by delegation.

Mr. OLSEN. He found it impossible to be present and asked that I appear with Doctor Gray in his stead. We are very glad to do that because we are very much interested in the census. I presume there is no organization that makes more use of the census data than our department, and naturally we are anxious to see that the Census Bureau is given such assistance as they need to get the kind of census they wish to put out.

Mr. RANKIN. You are from the Bureau of Agricultural Economics?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you the chairman?

Mr. OLSEN. I am assistant chief in charge of research in that bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is chief of the bureau?
Mr. OLSEN. Mr. Lloyd S. Tenny.
Mr. RANKIN. He could not come?
Mr. OLSEN. He could not come.

the last several days.

He is ill. He has been out for

Mr. RANKIN. What position has Doctor Gray?

Mr. OLSEN. He is senior economist in charge of the division of land economics. He has charge of our research in the field and makes a great deal of use of the census. In fact he has represented us in our contracts with the census people.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. OLSEN. In examining this bill a number of points have ocurred to us for discussion before your committee. In the first place, we note there is a separation of dates as between population statistics and the agricultural census. With that separation of dates we are very anxious to put in a word for a date for the agricultural census that will give us, as we see it, the data most accurately for agriculture. For that reason we feel that a date in December, and we say December 1, would be preferable to November 1. That is in our opinion a better date by reason of the fact that your crops are more nearly known by December 1 than they are by November 1, and the object of the census is to get as accurate an enumeration of crops and livestock as possible. Then there are sometimes certain other data obtained by the census that have an important bearing on the income for that year. Naturally that data can be obtained at a date that is more nearly at the end of the year than somewhat earlier. We feel, therefore, that it is extremely important to have that date very near the close of the year. We think the date of December 1 is probably somewhat better than January 1, although that has been used in the past in part because there is considerable shifting in tenants, particularly in the South even before Christmas, and that will affect the accuracy with which the data for tenants is obtained.

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