Mr. HIRSCH. Not under the law, the existing law at least. That is what makes it so inconvenient that only one person can be designated to take the director's place.

The CHAIRMAN. I might say, for the benefit of all of us, that this bill (H. R. 393) provides not only for the taking of the Fifteenth Census, but all other subsequent decennial censuses; and it is very important on that account.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, under the law giving the director the power to appoint these two assistants, and giving that authority, that would solve the problem, would it not?

Mr. HIRSCH. I think it would.

Mr. JOHNSON. Would that not be going out of the authority of the Department of Commerce, of which the Bureau of the Census is a bureau?

Mr. HIRSCH. These people like Doctor Hill understand the work in all its phases. I have been there myself 28 years. It is not as though we were working along a single line. We have 150 different inquiries to follow up.

Mr. RANKIN. I do not think it would be going outside of the Bureau of the Census. I think that, on the other hand, it would be holding it in the Bureau of the Census to make the change suggested. But I think the men who have been working all these years in the Bureau of the Census would be better qualified for that work than men coming from the outside, I do not care what their qualifications

are.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think this paragraph contemplates getting men from the outside. I think, from the statements made here, that it contemplates the designation of men who are already there as assistants to the director.

Mr. JOHNSON. Will you allow me to ask one other question?
The CHAIRMAN. Certainly; go ahead.

Mr. JOHNSON. The Director of the Census is himself an appointive officer, is he not?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Then that comports with the plan of the organization of the departments of the Government. He is a chief of a bureau, and is appointed under the administration. But all the other officials under him are civil-service men and in recent years have come under this classification law. And personally I think it is a mistake, even though we have a great census to take, which is a tremendous operation, to upset the arrangements which have been so long in building up for a uniform plan of bureaus in the department under the Secretary.

Mr. RANKIN. The Director of the Census is not confirmed by the Senate, is he?

Mr. HIRSCH. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. But the chief clerk is not?

Mr. HIRSCH. No.

Mr. RANKIN. And the chief clerk has the same authority that we would be conferring on these assistant directors. I am not in favor of broadening the power of putting politicians in these places or leaving the gap open for putting politicians in these places.

Mr. JOHNSON. I am not either.

Mr. RANKIN. When we need men who have had technical training. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I agree with you as to that.

Mr. JOHNSON. I agree with you; and I am inclined to think this is a complete plan for what you have in mind.

The CHAIRMAN. I think this covers that.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, we can take that up in executive session.

The CHAIRMAN. We will now proceed to the next paragraph of the bill, H. R. 393.

Doctor HILL. The next paragraph in section 3, page 2, of the bill, provides as follows:

In addition to the force herein before provided for, there may be appointed by the Director of the Census, without regard to the provisions of the classification act, for any period not extending beyond the decennial census period, at annual or piece-price rates of compensation to be fixed by him, as many temporary employees in the District of Columbia as may be necessary to meet the requirements of the work.

Now, of course, we have to employ a very large temporary force. The CHAIRMAN. Right there, let me ask you this: What is the particular definition of the words "any period not extending beyond the decennial census period"?

Doctor HILL. The decennial census period is three years from the 1st of July, 1929. That will expire in 1932.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you get too far from that, I want to go back for a moment to section 2 of the bill and ask you a question about it, if you are going to discuss these sections in numerical order. Doctor HILL. Yes. That is at the top of page 2 of the printed bill.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you not think it would be wise to insert a provision there that this report of the census shall be referred to Congress for its information and its approval and its use? Has that not been done in the past?

Doctor HILL. The report of the census-the statistical reports, do you mean?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The section merely says, "And the reports upon the inquiries provided for in said section shall be completed within such period." Are they not made to the President now?

Doctor HILL. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What I had in mind was a provision of this character: Provided, That as soon as practicable, the Director of the Census shall certify the figures of the census for the total population of the United States and the total population of the States and their respedtive counties to Congress, for its information, approval, and use.

Doctor HILL. I see no objection to that. We do that anyway. We will do it. I do not see any objection to it. Do you see any objection to it, Mr. Truesdell?

Mr. TRUESDELL. No. Of course, we should be allowed to publish the figures before Congress approves them.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand that you would publish the figures before Congress approved them; but they would not be declared as official until Congress had the opportunity to approve them? Doctor HILL. We certify them.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is what Mr. Rankin has in mind.

Doctor HILL. We should do that anyway; but I do not see any objection to that.

Mr. HIRSCH. I do not suppose any question could be raised by the comptroller about paying the bills before Congress approved it. Mr. RANKIN. We will take the chances on that.

Mr. TRUESDELL. There is the possibility of a lot of delay in our getting out the figures if Mr. Rankin's suggestion carries with it the requirement of submitting the figures to Congress for approval.

The CHAIRMAN. The figures might be prepared when Congress was not in session.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand; but they would not be regarded as the official census until Congress did approve them.

Mr. TRUESDELL. It seems to me there is danger in that kind of provision.

Mr. RANKIN. That has been in the law before, has it not?

Mr. TRUESDELL. There has been no requirement that they be submitted to Congress for approval; but they have been submitted to Congress as a matter of information.

Mr. RANKIN. I think that is part of the organic law, that Congress shall have supervision of census returns. In other words, I do not see how you can avoid that conclusion.

Mr. TRUESDELL. In the case of other statistics collected by various offices of the Government, it is not required that they be submitted to Congress before they are official.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand. I am not raising a question as to those.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Is it not the fact that the purpose and intention in submitting them to Congress is to acquaint Congress with the material? Is that not the main purpose?

Mr. RANKIN. That is one of them.

The CHAIRMAN. It says in the first section merely, "That a census of population, agriculture, and distribution shall be taken." Mr. TRUESDELL. But not that it be submitted to Congress. Mrs. KAHN. And the Constitution says it shall be for purposes of representation and taxation.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. So that it really ought to be submitted to Congress in a very official way.

Mr. RANKIN. I want to show you the dilemma you would get into if that was not done: You would be transferring by this measure the reapportionment to a bureau of the Government.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Mr. Chairman, do you remember, when the bill came up on the floor of the House last year? I should say that the strongest argument against the reapportionment bill at the last session was upon that point of surrendering our authority to an administrative department-that Congress was relinquishing its authority. Is that not correct, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. As I recall it, that was the main objection to the reapportionment bill at the last session of Congress. And are you not faced with the same objection now, unless you do call upon the Census Bureau for that information in a very official way to be furnished to Congress?

Mr. RANKIN. I think your reports, Doctor Hill, will have to be submitted to Congress before they are official, and I think they ought to be.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, will you submit that matter in executive session?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, I will take that up in executive session.

The CHAIRMAN. We can consider that when we get down to a discussion of the bill. You can insert that in the record now if you wish.

Mr. RANKIN. I will insert it in the record.

Doctor HILL. As I said before, we always have certified to Congress the population of the States as soon as the tabulation is completed. But this will be a new feature if it is proposed that before those figures can be accepted they must receive the approval of Congress, a political body; and as a statistician, I believe I should feel some reluctance in approving that procedure. Where would we be if Congress should say, "We do not accept those figures"?

Mr. RANKIN. Every department of this Government and every member of the Cabinet is subordinate to Congress.

Doctor HILL. That is true.

Mr. RANKIN. And Congress is the final arbiter to settle controversies arising over these reports.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, Congress does assign to certain agencies of the Government the duty to perform ministerial work. Mr. RANKIN. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. And this is purely ministerial; it is done in an administrative way. And in doing that Congress is not delegating its powers at all. It is simply directing certain agencies of the Government to do certain things. Congress always retains its authority; but in order that that certain thing may be accomplished within a reasonable time, and properly accomplished, Congress directs an agency of the Government to do that thing. Now, if all of these agencies of the Government are to be required before their findings may be recognized, or may become real-if they are obliged to report every one of those things to Congress and wait until Congress approves them, where is it going to end? You would have a large number of unofficial things in the archives of the various departments?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Does Mr. Rankin mean that they shall get the approval of Congress, or merely that they shall be submitted finally to Congress?

Mr. RANKIN. That they shall be submitted finally to Congress for their approval and use.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. What do you mean by "approval?"

Mr. RANKIN. I simply mean that if there is any question raised about

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. (interposing). The accuracy of the census, for instance?

Mr. RANKIN. The accuracy of the taking of the census.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. What interest have we in accuracy except for purposes of reapportionment; and then when we fail to reapportion we thereby say we do not accept the accuracy of the figures?

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mr. Jacobstein, that is exactly the point. That was the strongest argument against the reapportionment under the census of 1920.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Well, does not the power of approval or disapproval still reside with us when we can fail to reapportion? I am just wondering whether it is necessary to require the approval of Congress. If you simply say that it is to be submitted officially at the opening of the next session of Congress, have you not said all that is necessary; because nothing can be done with those figures officially until we do actually take action officially on them?

Mr. RANKIN. Then this proposed language could not hurt anything whatever.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. It might hurt in some ways. For instance, some of the branches of the Government, for taxing purposes or otherwise, would be denied the right to use the figures until Congress had approved them; and our approval may be withheld for some time, for political or other resaons.

Mr. RANKIN. They would not be denied the right to use them. The CHAIRMAN. Well, they could not use them if they required the approval of Congress and did not receive it.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, you might say that the approval of Congress would be implied if there was no objection made to them.

Mr. LOZIER. May I make this suggestion? The primary purpose of this census, as in the case of the last census, is for reapportionment? The CHAIRMAN. No, it is not. It is to ascertain the population of the country.

Mr. LOZIER. Well, it is to ascertain the population of the country for the purpose of apportionment. Of course, it is largely a technical procedure; and we must, in the very nature of things, depend on the statistical information furnished us and the work of the statisticians. But I can conceive of a situation which would require affirmative action on the part of Congress. I call the attention of the committee to the fact that in one of the censuses, there were great frauds charged and proven and admitted in the taking of the census in certain cities; and as a result of the flagrant padding of the census rolls, the census was retaken. I believe, in Minneapolis and St. Paul, and also in the city of St. Joseph, Mo.

Now, that is a vital matter; and it is a question that Congress has a right to pass upon, if the report of the Census Bureau to Congress is not satisfactory. For instance, Congress might be convinced that there had been padding in a certain city; and the Census Bureau would, of course, have the power to take that census again. But suppose, notwithstanding the facts, that the Census Bureau declines to take that census in that municipality again and Congress is convinced that there has been padding or a grossly inaccurate census taken in that particular city. Now, Congress would have the right to disapprove the census and the statistics of population of that particular city or community; and I think that it is folly to say that Congress must accept the statistics prepared by the Census Bureau, while in nine hundred and ninety-nine cases out of a thousand Congress would probably be convinced that the statistics. were accurate. But we do know that census statistics are padded; and if the Census Bureau should refuse to take action to remedy that evil, Congress would have the right to disapprove the statistics