make applications to the field clerks who recommend that these be conditionally removed, and in that event the land is sold under the supervision of the field clerk and the money disbursed under the supervision of the field clerk, but where they are removed through the competency commissions they are removed unconditionally, if removed at all.

Mr. WISE. It is a full, final, and absolute removal of everything the individual possesses and he is fully divorced from the control of the Government.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not mean that?

Mr. WISE. Except for any tribal property he might have an interest in. Now, Mr. Chairman, if I may be allowed a comment right there. I have been in the service a great many years and am interested in the solution of these so-called problems. I feel that in every case where restrictions of an Indian are removed on the ground of competency, if it is at all possible, his tribal estate should also be individualized and turned over to him. Until that is done I do not see that you have proceeded very far.

The CHAIRMAN. That is one thing that you and I absolutely concur in.

Mr. WISE. There are two kinds of tribal interests-the tribal lands and the tribal or trust funds. It would seem as though greater stress might be laid on that phase of the work-that is, partitioning the tribal interests; then the competency commissions would be operating with more definite results.

Mr. TILLMAN. Have you kept up with the record of some of these people whose restrictions have been removed on your recommendations dealing with their property?

Mr. WISE. I have not had much opportunity to do that, because I have seldom gone over the same ground, with the exception of a tour down in three counties of the Choctaw Nation. I was in there for five weeks a year ago last January or February, and I visited those counties again about six weeks ago, and that afforded me some opportunity to find out what they were doing. But that is the only case where I have had opportunity.

Mr. TILLMAN. As a result of what limited investigations you have made in that regard, have those Indians whose restrictions have been removed on your recommendation justified your action, in that they have kept their property or squandered it?

Mr. WISE. On the whole I believe they have made good-that is, that the percentage of failures was not any greater than we might expect. It goes without saying that we did not operate in any case unless we were reasonably sure. I might add in connection with your question that the two field clerks who are in charge of the districts referred to happen to be here, and they could perhaps give you very detailed information on that very point, but as far as my inquiries went those people, on the whole, made good.

Mr. TILLMAN. That answers my question.

Mr. RHODES. I desire to carry the idea suggested by Judge Tillman one step further and make it apply to the full-blood Indians who have been declared competent. What per cent of the full bloods who have been declared competent own lands to-day?

Mr. WISE. I have never had opportunity to go into that to get any definite figures.

Mr. RHODES. Have you any information on that subject?

Mr. WISE. My judgment would be in the districts already referred to that perhaps 50 per cent of them, at least, still own a portion of their allotments; perhaps a larger percentage.

Mr. RHODES. Your answer to Judge Tillman, of course, related to mixed bloods as well as to full bloods?

Mr. WISE. There are not many mixed bloods in that jurisdiction. They were nearly all full bloods-Choctaws and Chickasaws.

Mr. RHODES. Did I understand you to say, in response to the question of Mr. Elston awhile ago, that it was unnecessary to increase the force now engaged in the work of declaring those Indians competent here in the field?

Mr. WISE. Of course, that is an administrative matter and I would hardly like to express a definite opinion; but it would seem to me, knowing the field and the work as I do, that it would not be necessary. Now, in another three or four weeks I shall have completed that sort of superficial canvass that I spoke of in the nations that had been waiting for two years, and after that it is my purpose to take up those same districts, and more in detail, and make a house-to-house canvass similar to that made of the Creeks and Seminoles.

Mr. ELSTON. You made just now a comment on the fact that two nations have been neglected for two years. I think that carries the import on the face of it that there has been room for additional work in the way of competency commissions.

Mr. WISE. Perhaps I should not have used those words, and have been unfortunate in using those terms.

Mr. ELSTON. I do not know what you mean by the word neglected. That looks like a large lapse of time for a competency

commission.

Mr. WISE. No; if you will pardon me, I would hardly think so, because on reservations that were visited as long as four or five years ago they have not been revisited since. Those tribes, the Choctaws and Cherokees, were all carefully covered at that timetwo years ago.

Mr. RHODES. Let me ask you a question, and then we can draw our own conclusion as to whether or not there is a sufficient force on the work and whether or not the force now maintaining the work is working to the accomplishment of a definite purpose within a definite period of time; that is to say, that you favor finishing up this work between now and 1931. Do I understand there are about 25,000 restricted Indians yet?

Mr. WISE. I should hardly think there were that many left; perhaps not more than 18,000 or 20,000 in the Five Civilized Tribes; possibly not over 16,000.

Mr. RHODES. Then is it your intention to have declared competent any of that number of these Indians between now and 1931? Mr. WISE. They should be canvassed and passed upon before the expiration of that time.

Mr. RHODES. According to the manner in which the work is now being done and I assume that the necessities are met in all caseswill it be practicable to complete that work between now and 1931?

Mr. WISE. Without question, Mr. Congressman. You understand, of course, the same territory needs to be gone over again in the course of two or three years.

Mr. RHODES. All that is anticipated in the question. What I am trying to get at is this: I want to know whether the department here expects to have completed this work between now and 1931 in such a way that all the Indians may have been declared competent, if they are to have their property turned over to them and they in turn released from the supervision of the Government. Before you respond I will say I make that statement for this reason: Many Indians come to Washington before this committee, and in the vast majority of cases, I think, the Indian is anxious to have the restrictions removed, and he feels that he is entitled to have turned over to him his property and is willing to take his place in society and in government. I believe that that is the goal toward which this department is, or at least should be, working toward.

Mr. WISE. Unquestionably.

Mr. RHODES. Now, I was wanting to feel sure that within this period this work is going to be completed along the lines I have indicated; and if it is not going to be, how far are we going to go? Will it be necessary to extend that period at the expiration of 1931, or is the job going to be completed?

Mr. WISE. There are questions of policy involved in your questions, and I am not sure it is for me to answer.

The CHAIRMAN. You are dealing with law.

Mr. WISE. Certainly.

Mr. RHODES. You say that involves a question of policy, and I suspect it does; and if the policy is such as to retard rather than to hasten the day of emanicipation, then I would be against your policy; and if you are not at liberty to state your views because it does involve a question of policy, would you be kind enough to suggest to me of whom we might make inquiry in order to find out what progress is being made and whether there is a real, energetic effort being made on the part of the department to accomplish this purpose?

Mr. WISE. The head of the bureau and of the department should answer that question, I should think. Your question, however, implies a question that I think I can answer.

Mr. RHODES. Very well, answer what you can.

Mr. WISE. If the competency commission is kept at work among the Five Civilized Tribes one-half of the time, in my judgment between now and 1931 all of the people who are qualified to have their restrictions removed should have been seen and have had it done. I do not believe it would require the duties of even one commission permanently.

Mr. RHODES. Having declared an Indian competent, how long does this trust period extend beyond the declaration of competency, or does that terminate?

Mr. WISE. I understand the rule is that 30 days must elapse before he can make a conveyance; 30 days after the date that the removal order is signed by the Secretary of the Interior.

Mr. RHODES. One other question on the practical side of the proposition. Now, as I understand it, your field men here visit them, or you visit them in their homes?

Mr. WISE. We visit them at home wherever possible.

Mr. RHODES. I understood you to say to Mr. Elston that the initiative was taken by you and not by the Indian in such cases. The CHAIRMAN. No; the reverse of it.

Mr. RHODES. I seem to understand one way and the chairman the other. Which is which?

Mr. WISE. The practice has been for the competency commission to take the initiative and to visit the Indians in their homes. The CHAIRMAN. Making a deduction from the evidence? Mr. WISE. In that way they do take the initiative.

The CHAIRMAN. In reply to my question, the inference that I got was that you make your visits on applications from the Indians. desiring to be examined.

Mr. WISE. I do. That is to say, when they prefer a request to be canvassed for competency.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the rule or the exception?

Mr. WISE. That is the exception to the general practice. Let me explain. Owing to the accumulation of cases of people who were anxious to meet the board, I have been spending considerable time here in the Muskogee office, and since the middle of January I have probably taken 100 to 125 applications right here. Then I go over their cases with the field clerks.

Mr. RHODES. You have gone over that. What I wanted to have you clear up is that the initiative arises on the part of the department and you do not wait for the Indian to make application.

Mr. WISE. In a large majority of cases; no.

Mr. RHODES. Now, how long does it take after the application passes out of your hands on its way to Washington before the case is finally disposed of as a rule?

Mr. WISE. The removal orders come back to the agency office here. I do not see them, but from what I have learned I think they are usually returned approved in the course of two to three weeks, sometimes possibly four weeks.

Mr. RHODES. What is the rule with regard to the approval of those cases? Is your recommendation sustained in the majority of cases? Mr. WISE. I was just trying to think whether it had ever been reversed in any case. So far as I know, every case that has been sent in by the competency boards with which I have been connected has been approved by the department.

Mr. RHODES. About how many cases have you certified up to the department?

Mr. WISE. From this jurisdiction or from all jurisdictions?

The CHAIRMAN. From those jurisdictions, I think you stated it was about 900?

Mr. RHODES. Out of all that number not a single time have you been reversed?

Mr. WISE. I am not aware of any having been denied.

Mr. TILLMAN. In answer to the question you stated that about 50 per cent of the full bloods whose restrictions have been removed had sold their lands. Now, have they squandered their lands or got a fair price, that 50 per cent?

Mr. WISE. From the best information I received, from the field. clerks and others, they made tolerably good use.

Mr. TILLMAN. So it is not true that the full bloods can not be trusted to handle their property in the event their restrictions are removed?

Mr. WISE. Not in the cases we have passed.

Mr. TILLMAN. We are discussing those only.

Mr. WISE. You understand they are above the average.

Mr. TILLMAN. I am simply trying to emphasize that the full bloods are capable of transacting business for themselves in those cases where their restrictions are removed and to handle their property intelligently although they have sold it.

Mr. WISE. Just as intelligently as to those cases as the mixed bloods.

Mr. RHODES. That you may understand the reason for asking this question, I will first state that there are those who would have us believe that a large number of white people are lying in wait for an opportunity to strip the Indian of his property the very moment that he becomes possessed of it. Now, if the committee talks as though it was inclined to have the competency of all Indians hastened and their property turned over to them, then there are some people who imagine that we are at least in sympathy with the white people who are trying to rob the Indians. Then, on the other hand, if we are not energetic in advocating the early removal of restrictions and the turning over of property to the Indians there are those who think we want to hold back the process and force the Indian to remain under the jurisdiction of the Government longer than is necessary. So you see there is a practical middle ground that we will arrive at and which, I presume, the department is arriving at in the administration of his affairs, and I was wondering if you are prepared to state whether there is any substantial danger in that regard. Mr. WISE. There is some, yes, to be frank.

Mr. RHODES. I want you to be frank, and just as full as you can be in answering the question.

Mr. WISE. The competency board always mean to take that into account. There is a wide variance between different jurisdictions. An Indian who might be competent in one jurisdiction would not be in another, and by way of illustration, for example, I visited the Colville (Wash.) Reservation about 18 months ago, Colville, Wash., where the white people have not pressed in upon the Indian. The competency test would not be as strong by any means there as it would be in some other jurisdictions.

Mr. RHODES. I understand there is no fixed rule by which the test is made, but I would like to know what happens to an Indian after he has been detached from his competency and his property turned over to him?

Mr. WISE. I was trying to answer that these conditions were taken into account, and a little stronger proof required by the competency board in the various jurisdictions where the white man's greed would, perhaps, overtake the Indian and result in his losing his property. Mr. RHODES. Then I assume there is some danger of the helpless Indian falling into the hands of unscrupulous white men.

Mr. WISE. Undoubtedly; there is some danger.

The CHAIRMAN. Assuming that there are, as you say, 16.000 incompetent Indians left, and assuming that the work of the competency board is not speeded up, how many incompetent Indians